No power going to fuse 20

[Joseph041]

I recently swapped my 89 m20 with another m20 engine and swapped out the engine harness and ecu

Not sure if the issue was occurring before the swap but now I am not getting power to fuse 20 (the ac and blower controls) my windows etc
If I pull out fuse 10 I somehow get power to the windows and sometimes will get power to the ax controls and blower will turn on

I’ve check my ground and pulled apart dash looking for any rotted wiring

There was an aftermarket radio installed that he pulled out before I picked up the car. Looks like he just cut it out from the wiring.
Honestly stumped on this. I checked even my ground going to the starter and swapped around relays thinking they were bad and did not fix the issue.

Any help appreciated !

[Brianmoooore]

Heater fan is on fuse 20, Door mirrors are on fuse 19, windows (with front doors shut) are on fuse 17.
Can you confirm none of these are not working?
Switch on the ignition, put the gear lever into reverse, confirm the reverse lights are lit, then pull out fuse 10.
Do any of the heater fan, mirrors or windows (doors closed) work now?

[Joseph041]

Heater fan is on fuse 20, Door mirrors are on fuse 19, windows (with front doors shut) are on fuse 17.
Can you confirm none of these are not working?
Switch on the ignition, put the gear lever into reverse, confirm the reverse lights are lit, then pull out fuse 10.
Do any of the heater fan, mirrors or windows (doors closed) work now?

Yes none of these fuses are getting power as fuse 10 is placed in. Once it is pulled the windows will work, and fan turns on every now and then( blower, fan switch etc)
Yes reverse lights work I already checked the wiring coming back from under the transmission from the boot. Even with it unplugged there is no power to anything.

[Brianmoooore]

Yes reverse lights work I already checked the wiring coming back from under the transmission from the boot. Even with it unplugged there is no power to anything.

That's not quite what I asked, but your reply seems to confirm what I suspect is wrong anyway, especially as you've been changing or interfering with the engine loom.
It appears that somehow you've got the starter motor wiring wrong, and have ended up with 12 volts on the green/black wire to the starter solenoid all the time, instead of only when the starter is running.
This usually turns out to be a post facelift/pre facelift thing. What age is the replacement engine and associated bits?

[Joseph041]

Yes reverse lights work I already checked the wiring coming back from under the transmission from the boot. Even with it unplugged there is no power to anything.

That's not quite what I asked, but your reply seems to confirm what I suspect is wrong anyway, especially as you've been changing or interfering with the engine loom.
It appears that somehow you've got the starter motor wiring wrong, and have ended up with 12 volts on the green/black wire to the starter solenoid all the time, instead of only when the starter is running.
This usually turns out to be a post facelift/pre facelift thing. What age is the replacement engine and associated bits?

Mine is an 89 and I swapped a 90 into it with the wiring harness from the 90 since mine was destroyed. Also used my same starter from my 89 engine. I checked that ground and it was grounding fine, I did research and it said I can also place the green wire on the bottoms of the starter to see if it fixes the issue but that also did nothing.

[Brianmoooore]

Time to check some basics. Pull out relays K5 and K7, and use wire links to join pins 30 and 87 together on each socket.
What of mirrors, heater fan, roof and windows are now working reliably? Ignition does not need to be on.
Are K5 and K7 both the correct orange four pin relays?

[Joseph041]

Time to check some basics. Pull out relays K5 and K7, and use wire links to join pins 30 and 87 together on each socket.
What of mirrors, heater fan, roof and windows are now working reliably? Ignition does not need to be on.
Are K5 and K7 both the correct orange four pin relays?

When I pin 30 with 87 all functions work without the key In the ignition (blower, windows, ac button)
Yes k5 and k7 are the correct orange relays. I purchased new ones thinking they are bad but those do not work either.

[Brianmoooore]

Pull out both relays, and identify pins 85 an 86 of the bases of both relays.
Take a 12 volt 21W lamp (borrow a rear indicator lamp from a rear cluster, if you don't have a spare), push a couple of bits of wire into 85 an 86 of one of the bases, switch the ignition on, and connect the wires to the lamp.
Repeat with the other relay base.
Does the lamp light in both cases?
Start the engine and repeat both.

[Joseph041]

Pull out both relays, and identify pins 85 an 86 of the bases of both relays.
Take a 12 volt 21W lamp (borrow a rear indicator lamp from a rear cluster, if you don't have a spare), push a couple of bits of wire into 85 an 86 of one of the bases, switch the ignition on, and connect the wires to the lamp.
Repeat with the other relay base.
Does the lamp light in both cases?
Start the engine and repeat both.

I believe I did the test correctly
1. Pulled relays out
2. Added wires into 85 and 86
3. Switched ignition on and tested for light
4. Started engine and tested for light
5. Repeat for other relay

The result was no light whatsoever on all tests

[Brianmoooore]

Next test: Relays out.
One wire to a good body earth, other end of wire to lamp.
Ignition on.
Other wire: One end to lamp, other end into 85 and 86 of K5 in turn. Does lamp light at any time?
Repeat with K7 relay socket.
Start engine, and repeat all four.

[Joseph041]

Next test: Relays out.
One wire to a good body earth, other end of wire to lamp.
Ignition on.
Other wire: One end to lamp, other end into 85 and 86 of K5 in turn. Does lamp light at any time?
Repeat with K7 relay socket.
Start engine, and repeat all four.

There was no light on all the tests,
While ignition was on in pin 86 there was a spark from wires the first couple tries on both relays then after there was no spark at all. Tried another lamp just in case nothing.

[Brianmoooore]

Are you certain you did everything right? 86 of K5 should be 12 volts + , straight from the ignition switch, on the plain green wire.
Connect the lamp between 30 of either relay and a good body earth as a check. 30 is connected straight to the battery by one of the smaller wires bolted to the battery + terminal clamp. If the lamp doesn't light now, something very strange is going on.

[Joseph041]

Are you certain you did everything right? 86 of K5 should be 12 volts + , straight from the ignition switch, on the plain green wire.
Connect the lamp between 30 of either relay and a good body earth as a check. 30 is connected straight to the battery by one of the smaller wires bolted to the battery + terminal clamp. If the lamp doesn't light now, something very strange is going on.

I can retry the test to be certain
Do I pin 86 and 85 at the same time as grounding or just one at a time ?
When I pin 30 with a ground the lamp does light

[Brianmoooore]

Wire from body earth to one terminal of lamp. Wire from other terminal of lamp to 85 one one relay, then to 86 of same relay, then same with other relay. Four results in total.
The lamp has lit from pin 30 to ground, so it looks like you're doing it right. Do exactly the same, but with the wire that went to 30 in 85 and then 86 in turn, and with the ignition on.
Check that your reverse lights work first (ignition on), and if they don't, check fuse 10.

[Joseph041]

Wire from body earth to one terminal of lamp. Wire from other terminal of lamp to 85 one one relay, then to 86 of same relay, then same with other relay. Four results in total.
The lamp has lit from pin 30 to ground, so it looks like you're doing it right. Do exactly the same, but with the wire that went to 30 in 85 and then 86 in turn, and with the ignition on.
Check that your reverse lights work first (ignition on), and if they don't, check fuse 10.

Fuse 10 blew replaced fuse 10 and redid test:
Only light was from pin 86 of relay k7 while in ignition and when engine was running
The lamp did no light from either pins of k5 nor did it light from pin 85 of k7

[Brianmoooore]

Right, I think we're getting somewhere.
Do you have front foglights? If so, do they work?
If you don't have front foglights, relay position K8 should be empty. Check for power at pin 86 of the socket with the lamp (ignition on).
The above assumes you have a UK spec. car.

[Joseph041]

Right, I think we're getting somewhere.
Do you have front foglights? If so, do they work?
If you don't have front foglights, relay position K8 should be empty. Check for power at pin 86 of the socket with the lamp (ignition on).
The above assumes you have a UK spec. car.

Yes fog lights are working, pulled relay out and tested lamp at pin 86 no light but I tested pin 85 at lamp and there was light
I have us spec car but don’t believe there is a difference of the two

[HJ1981]

I have the US spec power distribution diagrams for virtually the whole car.

If you wish to see something specific, let me know, there is a small difference between US and ROW/EU models when it comes to certain options, but generally they follow the same plan, maybe more splices/different colour coded wires for options.

[Brianmoooore]

If you have a US spec. car, the tests regarding the foglights are irrelevant, because the foglight circuits are different to comply with local regulations.
Underneath the plastic deck of the fusebox, there is a printed circuit board, carrying all the relay sockets, the inner end of the fuse holders, nd the connections between them.
The green wire from the ignition switch is connected to the PCB by a multi pin plug and socket, near the area of fuse 10. A thick copper track goes to fuse 10, and a green/white wire from the outer side of fuse 10 goes to 86 of K7, which provided the power to light your lamp in the test.
A green/black wire goes from 85 of both K5 and K7 to the starter motor, and is effectively earthed by its main windings. Hence, your lamp should not light when connected to either of the 85s, as it didn't.
There is a long thin copper track on the PCB running from where the green ignition wire connects, near fuse 10, to the edge of the circuit board, and then up to 86 of K5. On UK cars it then goes across and connects to 86 of K8, but not on US cars.
You definitely have power at one end of this thin track, but not at the other, so it looks like there is some kind of damage to the PCB affecting this track.
You'll have to remove the screws holding down the top of the fusebox (two obvious and one hidden under a relay) pull it up and have a look. You may have to cut a few cable ties, both in the fusebox and under the dash to get enough slack wire to get a good look.

[Joseph041]

If you have a US spec. car, the tests regarding the foglights are irrelevant, because the foglight circuits are different to comply with local regulations.
Underneath the plastic deck of the fusebox, there is a printed circuit board, carrying all the relay sockets, the inner end of the fuse holders, nd the connections between them.
The green wire from the ignition switch is connected to the PCB by a multi pin plug and socket, near the area of fuse 10. A thick copper track goes to fuse 10, and a green/white wire from the outer side of fuse 10 goes to 86 of K7, which provided the power to light your lamp in the test.
A green/black wire goes from 85 of both K5 and K7 to the starter motor, and is effectively earthed by its main windings. Hence, your lamp should not light when connected to either of the 85s, as it didn't.
There is a long thin copper track on the PCB running from where the green ignition wire connects, near fuse 10, to the edge of the circuit board, and then up to 86 of K5. On UK cars it then goes across and connects to 86 of K8, but not on US cars.
You definitely have power at one end of this thin track, but not at the other, so it looks like there is some kind of damage to the PCB affecting this track.
You'll have to remove the screws holding down the top of the fusebox (two obvious and one hidden under a relay) pull it up and have a look. You may have to cut a few cable ties, both in the fusebox and under the dash to get enough slack wire to get a good look.

I’ve pulled apart the fuse box and searched for any damaged wiring there and under dash leading the the controls and came up Empty. Maybe I missed something. I guess it’s time to tear her apart again

[Brianmoooore]

Have you found the copper track in question? It's a track on the PCB, not a wire.

[Joseph041]

Have you found the copper track in question? It's a track on the PCB, not a wire.

Yes I believe I found it, it is just a brown grounding connecting fuse 10 with the k5 relay ?

[Brianmoooore]

brown grounding???

[Joseph041]

brown grounding???

Sorry, a ground connecting fuse 10 and relay k5

[Brianmoooore]

It's not a ground. It's 12 volts + , straight from the ignition switch, via the plain green wire in the plug
The pin soldered to the circuit board, that the green wire is connected to, sits in an area of copper covered by green lacquer. The inner part of fuse 10's holder is soldered to this copper area, and a thin track goes from it to the edge of the board, turns through 90 degrees, and goes up to 86 of K5 - right opposite 85, which has a black/green wire soldered to it.
We know there's power at the copper area near fuse 10, but not at 86 of K5, so there must be a break between the two.

[Joseph041]

It's not a ground. It's 12 volts + , straight from the ignition switch, via the plain green wire in the plug
The pin soldered to the circuit board, that the green wire is connected to, sits in an area of copper covered by green lacquer. The inner part of fuse 10's holder is soldered to this copper area, and a thin track goes from it to the edge of the board, turns through 90 degrees, and goes up to 86 of K5 - right opposite 85, which has a black/green wire soldered to it.
We know there's power at the copper area near fuse 10, but not at 86 of K5, so there must be a break between the two.

I know understand. I have found what you are talking about and yes there is indeed a break within the copper line.
Would I be able to solder the two joints back together ?

[Brianmoooore]

There's two ways of repairing that.
1) Clean off the lacquer on the track for half an inch either side of the break, then lay an inch length of bare or tinned copper wire (old fashioned 15A fusewire is ideal, but anything similar will do) along the track, across the break, an solder it in place along it's whole length. Or
2) Solder a piece of insulated copper wire between a point on either side of the break where there is already something soldered in place. In the area I can see in the pic., one end would be soldered to the relay base socket just down from the first 1 of 15150.

That break looks like it has been fused by a short circuit.

[Brianmoooore]

I've looked at the pic. on my 'phone now, where I can enlarge the pic., rather than just seeing it on my laptop. That copper track has definitely fused as a result of a short circuit at or near pin 86 of K5. The thin part of that track should not be used again, should be removed back as far as to where it widens out, near where the big red wire is bolted on. It needs to be removed because it has been heated, destroyed the adhesive holding it in place, and may come loose in the future, causing further short circuits.
The repair should be done by soldering a piece of thin insulated wire between the solder pad of 86 of K5, and a solder pad just to the left of the highest hump in the yellow wire as it is shown in your pic. If you trace the damaged track around off the bottom of your pic. you will find that it is part of the same copper area.

I referred to green lacquer covering the board in my posts above, but I see that yours is covered in red lacquer. I've seen plenty of PCBs covered in red lacquer, but never an E30 fusebox before.
I can also see the mod. that was made to US circuit boards to accommodate the local foglight regulations. Just below and to the left of 86 of K5, there is a vertical thin copper track that just stops and goes nowhere. On European boards this track continues across the small gap and is an extension of the copper just above it. The bottom end of this thin track will end at 86 of K8, where I guess there's a short piece of wire soldered between it and 87 of K4 to complete the mod.
Make sure than the bolt holding the big red wires in place is tight before putting things back together. It sometimes gets loosened by someone trying to open up the fusebox.

[Satan]

I've looked at the pic. on my 'phone now, where I can enlarge the pic.,

You can also "zoom in" on a PC, Laptop and Mac, sad git here lol, 25 years in IT makes you a bit of a nerd...............

I really need to buy the new Bremen and fit it as well as replacing the door window seal's on the Lotus, sheeeesh to get me out and about,

IMG_6573.jpg

[Brianmoooore]

I know I can zoom in on the laptop, but it's a lot more effort than just parting two fingers on the 'phone.

[Satan]

I know I can zoom in on the laptop, but it's a lot more effort than just parting two fingers on the 'phone.

22" screen vs 5" whatever makes you happier.......

CMD + on a MAC so still two fingers,

[Brianmoooore]

22"for a laptop! That's still considered big for a TV in this part of the world.

[Joseph041]

I've looked at the pic. on my 'phone now, where I can enlarge the pic., rather than just seeing it on my laptop. That copper track has definitely fused as a result of a short circuit at or near pin 86 of K5. The thin part of that track should not be used again, should be removed back as far as to where it widens out, near where the big red wire is bolted on. It needs to be removed because it has been heated, destroyed the adhesive holding it in place, and may come loose in the future, causing further short circuits.
The repair should be done by soldering a piece of thin insulated wire between the solder pad of 86 of K5, and a solder pad just to the left of the highest hump in the yellow wire as it is shown in your pic. If you trace the damaged track around off the bottom of your pic. you will find that it is part of the same copper area.

I referred to green lacquer covering the board in my posts above, but I see that yours is covered in red lacquer. I've seen plenty of PCBs covered in red lacquer, but never an E30 fusebox before.
I can also see the mod. that was made to US circuit boards to accommodate the local foglight regulations. Just below and to the left of 86 of K5, there is a vertical thin copper track that just stops and goes nowhere. On European boards this track continues across the small gap and is an extension of the copper just above it. The bottom end of this thin track will end at 86 of K8, where I guess there's a short piece of wire soldered between it and 87 of K4 to complete the mod.
Make sure than the bolt holding the big red wires in place is tight before putting things back together. It sometimes gets loosened by someone trying to open up the fusebox.

I’ve tried messing with it a bit yesterday and it seems like just getting to the track is going to be a pain because of the angles and all the wires in the way. Would there be any easy way to remove the entire board ? Or would pulling it out as much as possible have to be the only way

[Brianmoooore]

There's no practical way to remove the board, but you can loosen things up just enough to get access by pulling off the white multi pin plug, and cutting the odd cable tie in the fuse box and behind the dash, where the wiring duct from the bottom of the fuse box enters the cabin.

[Satan]

22"for a laptop! That's still considered big for a TV in this part of the world.

Monty Pythons 4 Yorkshiremen springs to mind.........