LPG Installation Help

[Brianmoooore]

AFAIK, 12 volts is available at the Leonardo diagnostic connector all the time it's powered up.
As far as the laptop is concerned, everyone recommends using an old one with proper serial and parallel ports.
Some USB adaptors work, but many don't.

[jon_d_h]

Some USB adaptors work, but many don't.

do you mean at all or just with the loenardo interface or software?

Also, is there any way I could test the interface cable to make sure it is working correctly?

Cheers

[Brianmoooore]

With the Leonardo, and LPG software in general.
The only way I know of to test the cable, is to use it in place of a known working one.
Computers are not my strong point!

[jon_d_h]

Right, sorted out a couple of problems today. The problem I had with 2 yellows being open circuit was found when I removed the leonardo unit and noticed that the pin had snaped of in the plug!!! I soldered a new one in and it gives closed circuit as expected so that is now sorted. The other was comunicating with the leonardo with my laptop. I went through everything looking at all the connections and at how i made the interface cable and couldnt find any thing wrong. I tried swaping Tx and Rx round on the serial plug which were pins 2 and 3. With these swaped, it worked

Il be doing abit of work on it tomorrow so hopefully will get it finished on week end.

[StuBeeDoo]

Il be doing abit of work on it tomorrow so hopefully will get it finished on week end.

Good man! You won't regret it.

[Jon_Bmw]

I'm now in profit, its such a good feeling, I have gone back too booting it around everywhere

Pretty quick turnaround times on DIY kits when it comes to making your money back.

[Brianmoooore]

Just won a 6 cylinder Romano Dream XX1-N kit on ebay, complete with 50 litre toroidal tank, for less than 100 notes! It's got a couple of tons of Japcrap wrapped around it, but with that removed, it's all good for a M50 or 52!

[Jon_Bmw]

Is that a multi point front end then brian? Bonus!

[Brianmoooore]

Full vapour injection system, and a good one at that.
Japcrap might make a couple of hundred when I've liberated the gas kit, as well.

[jon_d_h]

Right

Just had the car running on gas!! without the lambda on as I still need to do that. It idles but when I rev it it cuts out. Flicked the switch back to petrol and tried to start it, but it wouldnt start. So i started on gas then flicked the switch and it switched over. Now it isnt running correctly on petrol, even when I disconnect the leonardo. It is not as responsive as before and wont rev properly. All I have done today is fit the 2 yellow wires in series with the petrol injectors, and fitted the stepper motor. Has anyone any ideas?

Also, could someone please give me some pointers about how to set the leonardo up on the laptop. I dont have a clue what needs changing. At the moment I have set it up as follows:

number of cylinders: 6
Type of RPM signal: standard
Type of Petrol to Alt fuel switch over: deceleration by using TPS
Petrol - alt fuel switch over RPM: 2000rpm
Duration of fuel overlap: 0.4s
Type of level indicator: 0-90ohm
TPS type: direct switch
O2 sensor type: 0-1v standard
O2 sensor reading delay: 5
Type of O2 simulation: open circuit
Yellow wires: Disconnect injectors

Is any of the above wrong? Also, my level sensor is an AEB 0-90ohm so do I choose 0-90 or AEB?

Cheers

[StuBeeDoo]

Pretty quick turnaround times on DIY kits when it comes to making your money back.

IIRC mine took about 9 months and it was all brand new.

[Brianmoooore]

If you stop a car with single point injection while running on gas, and then immediately try to start it on petrol, the engine will be getting an induction system full of gas mixture, plus petrol injected by the fuel injectors, and will be most reluctant to start with a mixture as rich as that.
Solution? Don't do it!
Once the rich mixture has cleared you should be back to where you were though. Check that the backfire flap band is seated properly, and not letting air in.

[Brianmoooore]

number of cylinders: 6
Type of RPM signal: standard
Type of Petrol to Alt fuel switch over: deceleration by using TPS
Petrol - alt fuel switch over RPM: 2000rpm
Duration of fuel overlap: 0.4s
Type of level indicator: 0-90ohm
TPS type: direct switch
O2 sensor type: 0-1v standard
O2 sensor reading delay: 5
Type of O2 simulation: open circuit
Yellow wires: Disconnect injectors

Is any of the above wrong? Also, my level sensor is an AEB 0-90ohm so do I choose 0-90 or AEB?

Cheers

Post is twice as long as when I read it!!
All of the above is OK, except the fuel overlap needs to be considerably longer in my experience, especially if you use it to prime the system to start directly on gas.
Turn the fuel over run fuel cut off option on, set for around 2000 RPM, and switch on "o2 sensor lean for too long" in the diagnostics.
"AEB" sensor is the three wire type you had before. Use the 0-90 ohm setting.

[jon_d_h]

THE CAR IS FINALLY RUNNING ON GAS!!!!

Got the lambda sensor welded on today and its running perfectly. In my opinion, it is alot more responsive and seems to have more power now. It may not have been running right on petrol before. I have adjusted the 2 bolts on the side of my vaporisor. 1 is all the way in which I think is correct and the other(with a spring on it is adjusted to get the right idle. I was told by a OMVL supplier that to set the system up perfectly, I should read something on the laptop and then hold the revs at 200rpm and the value should be the same. If it isnt, the bolt with the spring needs adjusting. The only problem is, I dont know what value I should be looking at in the AEB software. Does anyone know?

Post is twice as long as when I read it!!
All of the above is OK, except the fuel overlap needs to be considerably longer in my experience, especially if you use it to prime the system to start directly on gas.
Turn the fuel over run fuel cut off option on, set for around 2000 RPM, and switch on "o2 sensor lean for too long" in the diagnostics.
"AEB" sensor is the three wire type you had before. Use the 0-90 ohm setting.

What you recomend putting the fuel overlap to?
Also, what are the "Fuel over run fuel cut off" and "o2 sensor lean"

Cheers

[stonesie]

I have no fuel overlap, it's set for starting on gas so it uses no petrol unless i want (need) to and with the fuel pump on a switch i keep it switched off untill needed. I have just extended the primeing time from 2 to 3 seconds to help it start more quickly, couldn't have that lass at work with the council tigra takeing the piss again.


I went with the starting on gas because i couldnt get a smooth change-over to gas, about 2 seconds was the best though.




Could a change of vaporisor make it better on gas? Mine is a BRC AT90E.

[Brianmoooore]

I've got the overlap set to about 3 sec, IIRC.
Warm the engine up on petrol, switch over to gas, and hold the revs steady at about 3000RPM. After a few seconds the red and blue coloured lines should appear on the laptop screen beside the stepper position display.
Don't be afraid to experiment with all the settings - you won't damage anything.
Did I send you a pdf of the Leonardo fitting instructions?
Fuel cut off and o2 sensor lean are on the laptop pages somewhere. The o2 lean function sets the yellow LED on the changeover switch to flash slowly if the mixture goes lean for several seconds. Handy to stop you melting your pistons!

[jon_d_h]

How can I put the copper pipe for the filler into the multvalve in the centre of the tank? I have been trying to fit it for about 3 hours and have not even come close to getting it in. There doesnt seam to be enough room for a bend in the pipe to get it into the multivalve. I have tried to bend the pipe to get it in but every time I have kniked the pipe and had to cut it back. How did anyone manage to get the 8mm copper pipe into the hole?

Cheers

[StuBeeDoo]

How did anyone manage to get the 8mm copper pipe into the hole?

IIRC, when I did mine I bent the pipe roughly to shape and started it in the multivalve before tightening the valve in position. Once the valve was tight in the tank, I tightened the pipe union.
HTH
Stuart.

[Brianmoooore]

Should be possible to bend it tight enough without kinking.
Have you tried bending it around something?
Perhaps your copper is a little hard. Try stripping the plastic sheath back a bit, heating the bit you want to bend to red heat, then letting it cool slowly. This will change the structure of the copper to as soft as it can be.

[jon_d_h]

Finished everything now. Still needs setting up to run perfectly as I cant get the idle perfect and it has some trouble starting. Also, alot of white clouds (smoke or condensation) are coming out the exhaust. This may be because it is not set up correctly.
Do you have any advice with seting it up? As I said with the value being at idle and at 3000rpm. Which one should I be looking at, the red or blue line?

Another thing is the tank level is displaying the tank to be empty on the Leonardo switch and on the actual level sensor. I have just filled the tank so this is wrong.

Cheers

[StuBeeDoo]

Another thing is the tank level is displaying the tank to be empty on the Leonardo switch and on the actual level sensor. I have just filled the tank so this is wrong.

When mine's full, I only ever get 2 green LED's on. It's been like it from day one. By the time I've done 80 miles the red LED is on. I just ignore them and re-fuel after 170-180 miles.

[Jon_Bmw]

Another thing is the tank level is displaying the tank to be empty on the Leonardo switch and on the actual level sensor. I have just filled the tank so this is wrong.

When mine's full, I only ever get 2 green LED's on. It's been like it from day one. By the time I've done 80 miles the red LED is on. I just ignore them and re-fuel after 170-180 miles.

Mine was like this, always showed 1 green LED. I filled it up last week sometime and thought nothing of it. Looked down and all 4 LEDS are lit up. Very random! Its now working as it should. We'll see how long it lasts. Its useless really as I know i'll get around 300 miles out of the tank.

[jon_d_h]

Ok, Il have a look. Just tried starting it now. Got it to 2000rpm and then let it drop so the gas kicked in but it kept cutting out. The revs where going up and down and I could hear a relay in the leonardo flicking on and off, and then it just cut out. So I let it warm up, and reved to 2000 so that the gas would kick in and after some reving, it idled correctly and ran ok. Could this be solved by setting it up correctly or is there something I can do?

Cheers

[stonesie]

Mine was like that at first, the Leonardo is self learning and after a couple of days it was ok.

From what i gather with mine the relays clicking in and out is because it thinks its going to stall and trys to put it back onto petrol then tries again.

[jon_d_h]

Mine was like that at first, the Leonardo is self learning and after a couple of days it was ok.

From what i gather with mine the relays clicking in and out is because it thinks its going to stall and trys to put it back onto petrol then tries again.

Cheers, Thats good news. I have set the leonardo up like said above. In the instructions, it says that the vaporisor idle setting needs to be perfectly set up. Do you know how to do this with the laptop connected?

Cheers

[stonesie]

Nope, I adjusted mine in a farley rough-arsed way.

I went for a drive and got it all warmed up then blasted it and saw when it 'sagged off' then adjusted the screw and tried again until it was at about 6-6.5K rpm, for some reason the laptop just won't talk to the Leonardo so the old dinosaur PC now lives in the garage for making adjustments, that talks to it with no problems.

[Brianmoooore]

The ideal way to set up a Leonardo is to replace the stepper motor with a 'power valve' (as used in open loop LPG systems), and adjust things so that it works properly with this.
When this has been achieved, just remove the power valve and fit the stepper valve back in.
LPG level gauges can usually be adjusted by various means, but even then are close to useless when moving, because the gauge is controlled by a simple float arm in an unbaffled tank.
Odometer will tell you run you are about to run out of fuel, plus you can feel the engine losing top end power occasionally for about the last five miles.

[jon_d_h]

The ideal way to set up a Leonardo is to replace the stepper motor with a 'power valve' (as used in open loop LPG systems), and adjust things so that it works properly with this.
When this has been achieved, just remove the power valve and fit the stepper valve back in.
LPG level gauges can usually be adjusted by various means, but even then are close to useless when moving, because the gauge is controlled by a simple float arm in an unbaffled tank.
Odometer will tell you run you are about to run out of fuel, plus you can feel the engine losing top end power occasionally for about the last five miles.

I have a manual gas adjuster that fits between the vaporisor and mixer. Is this a power valve? And how can I use it to set up the system?

I have been driving and all seems ok but I want to set it up better as in the leonardo instructions, it says that the idle thimble in the vaporisor needs to be set up in the exact right place. How Do I do this? I can comunicate with the leonardo on my laptop to display the parameters and change settings. Could anyone give me some advice to set it all up?

Also, I have a couple of problems which I am unsure about:
1) The tank level sensor which is an AEB 0-90 2 wire sensor is showing full on the guage and empty on the leonardo rocker switch LEDs. I am unsure why this is?
2) When starting the engine, it is set up to start on petrol and then when up to 2000rpm, change over to gas. This is fine but then when trying to start the engine again after running on gas, it takes alot of time trying to start. I dont know if this is suposed to happen?
3) Sometimes when running on gas, and coming to a junction with the clutch in, the revs stick at about 2000rpm when they should be about 900rpm. If it dad the accelerator, the revs drop to normal. Could this be to do with setting it up properly with the idle controller on the vaporisor?


Cheers

[johnlouis]

The ideal way to set up a Leonardo is to replace the stepper motor with a 'power valve' (as used in open loop LPG systems), and adjust things so that it works properly with this.
When this has been achieved, just remove the power valve and fit the stepper valve back in.
LPG level gauges can usually be adjusted by various means, but even then are close to useless when moving, because the gauge is controlled by a simple float arm in an unbaffled tank.
Odometer will tell you run you are about to run out of fuel, plus you can feel the engine losing top end power occasionally for about the last five miles.

I have a manual gas adjuster that fits between the vaporisor and mixer. Is this a power valve? And how can I use it to set up the system?

I have been driving and all seems ok but I want to set it up better as in the leonardo instructions, it says that the idle thimble in the vaporisor needs to be set up in the exact right place. How Do I do this? I can comunicate with the leonardo on my laptop to display the parameters and change settings. Could anyone give me some advice to set it all up?

Also, I have a couple of problems which I am unsure about:
1) The tank level sensor which is an AEB 0-90 2 wire sensor is showing full on the guage and empty on the leonardo rocker switch LEDs. I am unsure why this is?
2) When starting the engine, it is set up to start on petrol and then when up to 2000rpm, change over to gas. This is fine but then when trying to start the engine again after running on gas, it takes alot of time trying to start. I dont know if this is suposed to happen?
3) Sometimes when running on gas, and coming to a junction with the clutch in, the revs stick at about 2000rpm when they should be about 900rpm. If it dad the accelerator, the revs drop to normal. Could this be to do with setting it up properly with the idle controller on the vaporisor?


Cheers

You shouldent really have a manual power valve as well as the leonardo, though in theroy it shouldnt hurt. Can the leonardo be seen to be adjusting the stepper pointer to match the lean / rich mixture on the status page of the software? The diagnostics Brian was on about are accessed from the Diagnostic link on the main menu, tick all 3 options on and if the yellow LED (gas on) flashes when on gas, there is a problem.

Make sure your fuel level sensor is wired correctly, there are numerous wiring schemes for this and numerous settings. YOur not missing much if it works anyway.

Try changing the switchover to deacceleration using TPS, then you can quickly flick to gas by dropping the throttle suddennly at 3000 revs and flooring it again before it cuts the injectors, helped stop mine stalling at switchover.

Mine is a bitch to start if it does stall at switchover, I guess as Brian said it is due to the overly rich mixture.

Mine is still a pain at lights sometimes, though I am currently replacing a blows exhaust manifold which I think may of made it unstable on idle.

hope this has helped.

[jon_d_h]

The manual power valve is not fitted, Its just in the garage, but as Brian said, it can be used to set the system up so the system works properly. How could I do this? I can see that the stepper motor is working on the stutus page on the software.


Quote:
Try changing the switchover to deacceleration using TPS, then you can quickly flick to gas by dropping the throttle suddennly at 3000 revs and flooring it again before it cuts the injectors, helped stop mine stalling at switchover.

Mine is a bitch to start if it does stall at switchover, I guess as Brian said it is due to the overly rich mixture.
___

So, you switch over to gas on the move or rev it whilst still?

I still dont properly understand what could cause a backfire in the intake side?

Cheers

[stonesie]

''I still dont properly understand what could cause a backfire in the intake side? ''

Basicly a lean mix, not enough gas compared to the amount of air in there at that time, mines done 3 (all while starting on gas) and it does make people jump

When mine was starting on petrol and automaticly changing over i had the changeover upto 2 seconds and it was ok-ish at that, you let it change over while it's on over-run with the car rolling in 2nd at least to get it smooth and backfire free.

The risk of backfires is why single point systems should not be fitted to the 24v engines, the cast alloy manifolds of these older engines can easely contain the blast which would just shatter a later plastic manifold.

[jon_d_h]

Ok, Il do that for now. Cheers

What about starting on petrol after running on gas? If I go and try to start my car now after running on gas about 3 hours ago, it will take along time trying, Is there any way to stop this happening? I think it will have something to do with gas still being in the engine and intake.

Cheers

[stonesie]

Yep, the gas is heavier than air so it just sits in the inlet, the best way to avoid it completely is to switch the car back to petrol before you switch it off, about 10 seconds at idle should make sure that all the gas is out of the inlet.

Mine gave me a reminder the other night, ran out of gas on the motorway and didn't have my LPG station map so i did 120 miles of fast-ish motorway driving on petrol... 1/2 a tank (probably 25-30L)

[jon_d_h]

Gutted!!

So is that what you do everytime before you cut the engine?

Still having abit of trouble switching over to gas. I drive down the road and go over 2000rpm and let off, it cuts over but stalls and nothing happens. Then it picks back up and trys going again, then nearly stalls, then picks up etc for about 20 seconds then it will steady out. Is this normal or could some settings or the idle be adjusted to change this?

Cheers

[stonesie]

It sounds like its not getting enough gas, whats your changeover time set to? it might be worth extending it some more.

There is also a manual shut-off on the multivalve on the tank, when i first tried to run mine on gas it wasn't fully open and caused simmilar problems.


I have mine set to start on gas with 3 seconds of primeing, so i don't clear the inlet of gas before switching off. It's been known to fire up on the 1st compression