Fuel pump... replacement... what did you get???

Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:26 am

Right then, tonight's problem I believe to be my fuel pump!!!

I basically want to know if there is any better replacement/upgrade than the OEM unit (bosch?) - or any point in 'upgrading'???
Mine is a 1990 325i touring, now a 2.7 M20 pushing near on 220bhp (when it gets enough fuel!!!) - I'm sure I've read the oem unit is plenty good enough for that, but wondered if any trackday enthusiasts, tuners, etc, have upgraded and to what and why?

If you can bear my ramblings, read on...
It would explain a few things and may well sort out most of the intermittent performance problems I've been having for years!!!
I've always suspected it and everyone tells me it's good - but I'm going to bite the bullet and change this fuel pump now!!!

My car had a little splutter the other night when I started it, but then ran fine, so I though no more of it, (yes, I'm an idiot!).
I've been in and out of the car all day today but tonight, when I came out of the gym, turned the engine over and just got a splutter and a stall!!!
Tried again and it started to run(?) very rough, low revs - I touched the throttle and it died!!!
Started it again and let it run rough for a minute or so then it just died by itself!!!
Turned over again and again, but nothing!!!
Long story short, after poking about, I got to thinking it could be a fuel problem so I lifted the back seat, gave the floor several hefty whacks with my right boot, turned the key - perfect!!! Ran sweet as you like all the way home!!!

Now problems I've had that no-one can solve, mainly include some kind of brief cutting out when under significant load - i.e. high revs 2nd/3rd/4th gear - but only at 100% throttle!!!
It feels almost like there is a hole in the map or something, but it's intermittent, does it at different revs each time, (or not at all!) - and it has been remapped several times!!!
Everyone who has looked cannot find a problem!!!
I've tested and replaced all manner of ignition parts, all seems good after poking around for a day or so, then you start to boot it one day....
Very odd - I've always said it 'feels' like a fuel problem - a blockage or 'cut' of some kind!!! I've had new filters, had the lines checked and even had a local garage pressure test the fuel system for me over a couple of days and it came back fine - 2.8bar, all seems perfect sir!!!

This latest 'pain in my ass' tells me the pump is at least on the way out, if not, already my intermittent culprit - hence I'm going to replace it and see what happens!!!

But before I do... any other opinions/ideas/etc?????????

What pressure is needed for this modest power boost and what does the OEM pump work at/is it sufficient???

Thanks in advance, for reading all my rubbish!!!!

Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:55 am

In short, no advantage in 'upgrading' at all. All fuel pumps flow many times as much fuel as the engines need, but not all can provide it at the required pressure. Since your engine was designed to only require a modest pressure, the standard pump does all that's required of it.
If you fitted an engine that was designed to use a much higher fuel pressure, such as some of the BMW 'S' engines, then you would need a higher pressure pump.
Fuel pressure is set by the fuel pressure regulator, not the pump, and the regulator has its limits. Fitting a pump with too much flow my well overload it, and cause the engine to run rich.

Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:17 am

As Brian said, the standard pump will be fine for the 3 bar an M20 runs at. The standard E30 pump ran my S50B30 (also 3 bar) without issues.

Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:22 am

I See - thanks Brian... I'm running rich enough and get through too much super unleaded as it is, so I'll stay with standard parts then!!!

Just to decide whether to buy a complete replacement unit, or just a pump, as it seems they are two different options!!!

I'm considering spending out and getting the complete unit so I 'know' (in theory) that it's all good - and there's a little bit less chance of me cocking something up!!!

Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:37 am

Also - any recommendations of where to get one at a good price???

BMW Croydon just quoted me £294.63+vat for the complete unit!!!

ECP have the complete unit at £188.40 or £134.40 but don't state a brand - plus I've had issues with them too often and don't really want to give them my business!!!

Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:21 pm

Oh, and how long do I get now it needs a kicking to get the car started???
Is complete failure gonna leave me stranded any minute, or do they go on like this for a while???

Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:59 pm

miniblob wrote:Also - any recommendations of where to get one at a good price???

BMW Croydon just quoted me £294.63+vat for the complete unit!!!

ECP have the complete unit at £188.40 or £134.40 but don't state a brand - plus I've had issues with them too often and don't really want to give them my business!!!

Hi, I bought my pump from Carparts4less, part number 441110040, it's an original equipment VDO pump, I bought it when they were knocking £15 off all orders over £100, the price was reduced from £140 to £125, I doubt you'll get one cheaper.

This didn't come with the sender though.

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/search/441110040/p/home

Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:46 pm

PG325 wrote: I bought it when they were knocking £15 off all orders over £100,

They still are!
There's plenty of good second hand ones still out there.

Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:10 pm

ECP sold me an external pump that was labelled as in tank - so they do get things wrong. But happy enough to rectify mistakes.

Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:01 pm

PG325 wrote:
Hi, I bought my pump from Carparts4less, part number 441110040, it's an original equipment VDO pump, I bought it when they were knocking £15 off all orders over £100, the price was reduced from £140 to £125, I doubt you'll get one cheaper.

This didn't come with the sender though.

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/search/441110040/p/home

Nice one, thanks mate!!!

So the original is VDO then, not Bosch???
I'm assuming there won't be much in it between brands, reliability wise???

I don't want to go for a second hand one, simply because, if mine has been causing my problems, intermittently, for some time - there's no reason why a second hand one could test perfect, but still give the same intermittent issues over the near future.
I'm hoping a new one should out last the car!!!

As for ECP, they do have some good parts at some decent prices at times, but all too often I receive the wrong parts!!! It's usually only worth it if I'm passing, know exactly what I want and can go in and 'supervise' to make sure I get the right thing!!!

Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:21 pm

Also, wanted to ask, (learning from Brians previous post!) - the Fuel Pressure Regulator...... so where is that located??? How does it work??? Can it go wrong/be tested???

Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:57 pm

miniblob wrote:Also, wanted to ask, (learning from Brians previous post!) - the Fuel Pressure Regulator...... so where is that located??? How does it work??? Can it go wrong/be tested???

The FPR is located at the front of the fuel rail at the top of the engine, you can measure flow over a 30 second period, accordingly to the bentley manual it should a minimum of 875ml.

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:06 pm

miniblob wrote:the Fuel Pressure Regulator...... so where is that located???

On the injector fuel rail. Follow the thin rubber vacuum pipe from the inlet manifold above the rocker cover.

How does it work???

Rubber diaphragm and spring. Releases excess fuel from the rail to stabilize the pressure and returns it to the tank.

Can it go wrong/be tested???

Most common thing to go wrong is the failure of the small rubber hose from the inlet manifold. Without this tube, the fuel pressure is kept constant above atmospheric pressure, instead of above the pressure inside the manifold. This results in too much pressure (and fuel being used) at part and closed throttle.
They can also leak to the tank when the car is stopped, giving slow starting while pressure is built up, or fail internally and allow fuel to flow into the inlet manifold via the vacuum tube, giving a mixture so strong at idle that the car may refuse to run.
A temporary bit of clear pipe connected in the vacuum pipe shows this one up, and other problems are detected by connecting a pressure gauge to the rail.

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:58 pm

Perfect - Thanks!!!

Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:33 pm

An OEM style Bosch in-tank one can be found here (copy and paste the entire link):
http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/fuel-pu ... 4!070.html
Or search for part ref. 0 580 314 070.

I had to make a minor modification the plastic filter sock but other than than it appeared to be a like for like replacement for the original. I got fed up with a second hand one that only lasted a few months and left me stranded again, despite the oft-heard claims that a well placed thump would persuade a dying pump back into life.

Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:39 pm

miniblob wrote:Oh, and how long do I get now it needs a kicking to get the car started???
Is complete failure gonna leave me stranded any minute, or do they go on like this for a while???

Answered that one - its properly dead now!!!
I'm on a delayed train full of idiots - going to the wrong place because all trains to where I'm going have been cancelled!!!
I wonder why there's so many cars on the roads???

Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:10 pm

Also wondering about the fuel filter... BMW want £40.80 with the vat, so I'm wondering if it's any better quality or even a different brand from other available???
CP4L do a Crosland for £2.95 or a Hengst for £6.60 - which seems a big enough price difference for me to question the quality!!!

Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:44 pm

I would buy the Hengst,but check with GSF first,that's where I buy most of my BMW bit's from.

Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:19 pm

Another vote for Hengst, it's a good make, go for it.

Also can vouch for Mister-Auto - I bought quite a few bits from them on eBay and all is genuine stuff for a good price.

Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:23 pm

I use mr auto a lot they are really good.

sorry its off topic but i am interested to know what mods you have done to the 2.7 lump

cheers

Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:48 pm

Sold - I'll go for the Hengst - just need to get these here asap so I can be back on the road!!!

jimbom30cab wrote: sorry its off topic but i am interested to know what mods you have done to the 2.7 lump

cheers

Errrrr, pretty much everything possible!!! It was not cheap, to say the least!!! Mostly done by Ant when he was running A-tech, but unichipped and mapped since then by Paul off here at Circuit Motors!!!
Personally, if I was doing another, I'd go for a different BMW engine - 3.5 straight six, or a V8!!!

Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:23 pm

Thanks mate, yer I'd agree with the engine recommend. I've got a 2.7 and a 3.5 both cam'd, BBTB, light fly and chipped. The M30 is miles more powerful but the 2.7 is a great revvy little screamer. The 2.7 is the young frisky filly and the M30's the big mama !!

Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:43 pm

With the cam I've got, it really takes off over 3500rpm!!! Definitely a screamer!!!

Wasn't meant to be a daily, but I do enjoy it, (most days)!!!

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:35 pm

So..... am I being mugged off by CP4L????????

For a start, it at appears from the mess they sent me, that they are Euro Car Parts in disguise. (I purposely avoided buying from ECP).
Both the fuel pump and filter had ECP stickers on them.
Secondly, the fuel pump is only in a box because of the sheer amount of sellotape holding it together - it looks like people have been playing football with it!!!
Thirdly - when I got in through the sellotape, the pump, is just an internal pump, with a bit of hose and a filter..... I was under the impression I was buying the complete unit!!!
This is the link I bought from, anyone agree/disagree....
https://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/c/ ... 54a&000148
I'll add pics of what I received in a bit... obviously it doesn't match their images!!!

Needless to say I'll be calling them tomorrow, but it does leave me with a dilemma....
Do I mess about dismantling the old and fitting this in the hope it is new and does work perfectly/reliably......
Or do I return it and stay out of pocket for a weeks or so while they refund it??? (assuming that is an option!!!).

I really wanted to replace the complete unit, not piss about changing the pump on it's own.
In addition to all this, I really need the car back on the road, but I don't want that to force me into settling for something which is not as described!
On top of that, just the pump was available from just £51 when I was looking:
http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/fuel-pump

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:49 pm

I ended up getting a walbro unit - cheaper then any of the other offerings

make sure the £51 one isn't an external pump - I made that mistake on a mapei one from Germany (£40 down the drain!!)

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:55 pm

What I received...

What was/is advertised.....

Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:56 pm

Quaser wrote:I ended up getting a walbro unit - cheaper then any of the other offerings

make sure the £51 one isn't an external pump - I made that mistake on a mapei one from Germany (£40 down the drain!!)

Says 'in tank' next to it in their product title!!!

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:00 pm

CP4L is exactly the same company as ECP, except you can't collect anything from them and they only do home delivery.

The good thing is that their prices are always the cheapest possible, while ECP is more expensive for different reasons, so when ECP do discount promotions, their DISCOUNTED prices match the normal prices on CP4L.

If you received just the pump, then yeah, it was probably a mistake on their end - hence the reason why I prefer ECP, you can always see what you're picking up.

And with regards to cheap pumps for 50 quid, you don't really want to buy that...It's a fuel pump ffs, get Bosch or VDO, not some aftermarket crap.

P.S. Do yourself a favour and get a complete OEM pump from Mister Auto...Here > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-3-E30-Fue ... 3f264adfdf

That's for a facelift 325i.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:10 pm

Pic. shows the complete unit, and that's what you should have received.
The £51 (and the £81 Bosch pump) are both listed as for a 1990 325 (which will require and 'in tank' pump, and are both stated to be 'in tank' pumps, but the pics. are definitely of an external pump. What you'd receive is anybody's guess.
I suggest your first move is to contact Meatballs 82 on here (he's an ECP branch manager) and ask him if he can decipher what's available and what you should have received.
Second move is to contact CP4L, see what they have to say, and hopefully negotiate to keep the pump you have, with a refund bringing it back to £51 less £5 discount.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:54 pm

That OEM pump from mister auto, is cheaper than CP4L with the £15 off code!!!

Appreciate what you said Brian about getting the difference back, but I may well order that ebay/mister auto one after I've rung CP4L and made sure they're going to refund me!!!

One more question - zd3bx, you stated that pump is for a facelift 325i.... is there a difference between that and the earlier cars???

Although mine is a later touring, the engine has been changed and I believe a lot of the parts are from an earlier model - which did lead me to buy the wrong intake boot from BMW previously!!!
Surely this pump is the same and I'm not stitching myself up again???

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:43 pm

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... #Fuel_Pump

although i think all tourings have 63ltr tanks so you sould be ok

Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:59 pm

Unless the touring has been fitted with a tank, etc. from a much earlier car as well, then the pump in the CP4L pic. and the Mister auto pic. is the one you want.
Re. the intake boot: You should have kept the later one (missing a small side connection, I presume) and modified the servo vacuum arrangements with E30 M40 or E34/36 bits to suit. Simplifies the engine bay and makes working on the inlet side much easier.

Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:12 pm

pianist wrote:http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... #Fuel_Pump

although i think all tourings have 63ltr tanks so you sould be ok

As above, you'll be fine with the 63ltr one (standard on all Tourings), unless someone messed around with your tank and swapped it for a smaller one, which is highly unlikely lol

P.S. Brian, check your PMs

Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:56 pm

Nope, tank hasn't been swapped for a smaller one so all good there at least!!!

Brianmoooore wrote: Re. the intake boot: You should have kept the later one (missing a small side connection, I presume) and modified the servo vacuum arrangements with E30 M40 or E34/36 bits to suit. Simplifies the engine bay and makes working on the inlet side much easier.

Bugger - all the drawings on the BMW system are the same and show the earlier one, but the later one missing a connection always turned up - it took ages for the fella at the dealers to get me the right one, as they're the same part number too!!!
At least I sold the original one easily on ebay and got my money back on it!!!

Out of intrest and ready for next time, is there a link to what needs doing for that??? Any benefit other than keeping it simple/tidy???

Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:20 pm

miniblob wrote:So..... am I being mugged off by CP4L????????

For a start, it at appears from the mess they sent me, that they are Euro Car Parts in disguise. (I purposely avoided buying from ECP).
Both the fuel pump and filter had ECP stickers on them.
Secondly, the fuel pump is only in a box because of the sheer amount of sellotape holding it together - it looks like people have been playing football with it!!!
Thirdly - when I got in through the sellotape, the pump, is just an internal pump, with a bit of hose and a filter..... I was under the impression I was buying the complete unit!!!
This is the link I bought from, anyone agree/disagree....
https://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/c/ ... 54a&000148
I'll add pics of what I received in a bit... obviously it doesn't match their images!!!

Needless to say I'll be calling them tomorrow, but it does leave me with a dilemma....
Do I mess about dismantling the old and fitting this in the hope it is new and does work perfectly/reliably......
Or do I return it and stay out of pocket for a weeks or so while they refund it??? (assuming that is an option!!!).

I really wanted to replace the complete unit, not pee pee about changing the pump on it's own.
In addition to all this, I really need the car back on the road, but I don't want that to force me into settling for something which is not as described!
On top of that, just the pump was available from just £51 when I was looking:
http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/fuel-pump

That part number is exactly the item I purchased from CP4L and it was a complete unit (minus the sender). I would imagine some arse had either put the wrong sticker on the box or considering the box condition put the wrong item inside it.

Annoying to say the least, you can email CP4L, sometimes you can get hold of them quite late as I believe the email is being manned by an Indian call centre, but they still resolve in my experience.