Worlds longest Resto, my C2 2.7 19/3/18 Vent guage action

Doing a minor build / restoration or an epic one, post it here

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Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:39 pm

So forgetting all this so far heres how it went in, any mistakes seen say so he he :o

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pedals went in ok, theres a pre-cut plate tacked in on the bulkhead like the ski hatch, a/c bits. You just punch it out for the master cylinder to fit.



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The hard line is supposed to run the other side of the servo. I bent this a bit getting it off a car in the scrappy with the engine still in it. so i couldn't get it the right shape so i did this instead. You wouldn't know it was wrong if i didn't tell you



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You like? i did! no bracket for the resevior and i can't weld so.............



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Dangling donk, we think its going to all work here!!



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flwheel on



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always check! which way round




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very old original dealer clutch tool :)



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ready....................





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bang box on....



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re strap it all




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in she goes



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nearly



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in!



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ready to go



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gear lever all on, this Z3 lever is not to my taste. My guess is its a 1.9 lever. Very tight action though



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Alpina zorst



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Centre box bodgery! Needs sorting really


Next bit onto the drama of getting it going
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:53 pm

That VW Beetle's wing is getting pretty rotten! Does it ever turn a wheel?

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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:10 pm

That's the spirit Si, chin up, onwards and upwards :thumb: :D
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Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:24 pm

Right so after topless's observation i had a look through some old photos of the tourings engine rebuild here is the head all built up before i torqued it down. Lets pay attention and i'll do my best to explain it all in how i saw it.

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So things to note are exhaust valve is open on port 2 and inlet is open on port 3. I can't believe i dont have a picture of the end of the camshaft to compare to this one on the current engine



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Here is the 2 doors head before i bolted it down. Look inlet 4 is open and exhaust 5 instead. So 180 degrees out.


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Here is TOURING engine timed up to TDC, note the position of the rotor its pointing roughly at 5 o'clock.

This engine was 100% right off the bat because it fired first turn of the key and we haven't looked back


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2 door head, so there are 2 holes on the end of the cam. This one had a little core plug in it and the cam sprocket wouldn't fit. So i put it on 180 out. Hence why at TDC we ended up with the valves open cylinders 4 and 5


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Here is a better shot of the 2door engine before the sprocket and cambelt went on. You can see the 2 holes on the end of the camshaft they're 180 apart



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this is just to show how the pistons come up and down on a 6pot. 1-6 together 2-5 together and then 3-4 together


So by having it the way i did, we ere never going to have valve piston contact. I'd thrown the ignition timing out basically. So it was firing each port when the engine was on its exhuast stroke. Hence the back fire when the exhaust was full of enough fuel. All makes sense now.

This is why we had fuel, ignition in the right order and most importantly compression.



So onto how i rectified it, the pictures aren't the best but i'll try best



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Crank timed to TDC.


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So again valves are open on pots 4-5. the rotor is pointing in the right direction. So this is how i had it timed up "right"


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So i cranked the crank pulley 1 turn. This left the engine like this. Rotor pointing 180 out but the valves are now open on pots 2-3. So according to the engine were timed up "wrong" but we know its now correct. So by doing this all i had to do now was pull the cam sprocket off and turn it 180 degrees. By doing this i didnt have to get clever and remove the cambelt and try and turn the camshaft 180 with the head down and turning the crack so nothing hit and time it all right and end up in a mess! take a deep breath.

Hopefully your catching my drift now



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Pulley off, but we have that little core plug stopping the sprocket from fitting in its correct postion.



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rather than try and drill it out i basically fitted the sprocket held it where it was supposed to go and wound the bolt in. This pushed the core plug down into the end of the cam and the sprocket fitted perfectly.

So now it was all correct and i refitted it all and it started straight up with the horrid noise.

Now all thats left to do is diagnose the problem and go from there. I towed it home this morning and the car is back on the drive. Its a bit cold but i'll go out this afternoon and have a tinker.
Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:26 pm

But now looking more closely at the pictures i have the holes on the end of the cam aren't exactly 180 apart 8O

I reckon now maybe there has been some contact?! i hope that a piston isn't mashed! Time will tell on this saga. Can i sue schrick!!
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:55 pm

1st up measure the clearances again. Imo. That will give an indication as to what the state of play is. Anyone local/handy got a bore-o-scope thingamy? Have a peak inside?

Maybe I missed it. Did you time the cam off those dowl holes?
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Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:57 pm

thats how they time up, except the stock bmw cam only has 1 locator hole on the end of the cam so you simply can't get it wrong.
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Tay
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:58 pm

did you check on the position of the lobes on 1 and 6? or did you just rely on the marking on the cam pully??? and did you crank it round first to make sure before you hit the starter???
on some high lifts if your gunning it you can get a small amount of valve bounce which meeans bad news especially if the timing isn't spot on,
that said you can advance and retard the cam by a couple of teeth each way before you are likely to see contact!
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:59 pm

Borrow barrys endoscope???
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:20 pm

Simon13 wrote:Can i sue schrick!!
Schrick didnt let you down, you did!

:)
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:26 pm

I cannot see why they would supply 2 dowl holes. Nor any info or guidance on it!

Personally though, I feel they'd just say you should have checked what valves were where before you started it.
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 pm

B7 wrote:I cannot see why they would supply 2 dowl holes.
maybe if you are using an adjustable pulley it may have 2 bolt holes?
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:03 pm

Be interesting to see oz's as he's using a vernier pulley.
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Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:14 pm

no verniers work in a different way
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:21 pm

I think Si has one on the touring?
Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:05 pm

nope, well the head is off i'll let the pictures do the talking :D
B7
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:19 pm

No vernier on the touring. More for decked blocks I believe.
Last edited by B7 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:20 pm

Simon13 wrote:nope, well the head is off i'll let the pictures do the talking :D

Chop, chop. :)
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B7
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:22 pm

We're waaaaaaaaaitiiing!
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Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:29 pm

well photobucket is being a c**t tbh so bear with me......................
Simon13
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:57 pm

This is exactly as how i removed the head and what it looked like. I'll let the pictures do the talking but its not pretty




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totally and utterly f**ked i think is about right



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This clearly shows the holes are not exactly 180 apart. But i don't think it was far enough to start bending the valves tbh



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So these are the great action shots............... but where is the valve seat? This is cylinder number 3




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its gone!



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This is number 5 cylinder! where most of the seat is




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pots 3 and 4



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5 and 6. cylinders 1 and 2 have no damage


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The other chambers where the valve seat ended up




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Heres port number 1. Now i can't confirm this but even if the valve was ever so slightly bent then it wouldn't seat perfectly. These 2 clearly are and theres no marks on the valves or the slugs on cylinders 1 and 2. Or ANY of the valves for that matter.

I guess when the valve head punched a hole in the head it then filled with coolant and it was also sucked into the other pots


This leads me to this conclusion. The valve seat dropped out and lunched the donk. It was obviously loose. The horrible noise at a guess was the valve seat moving and the valve bashing it every time it shut. A metal on metal noise.

I'm not excusing myself of the blame here but i think i've had a bit of bad luck at moment


So i pray that the bores are ok and it can be re used without any more expense. It looks ok. Hopefully the camshaft is ok too. I'll need 6 pistons and another head. I've got 2 spare heads in "stock" i guess i only have 1 spare now!

What do we think?
B7
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:03 pm

Woh shit!!!!

Who fitted the valve seats si?
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:06 pm

sh1t the fookin bed :clin:
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e30topless said : Proper BMW's have 4 headlights, last of the run was the E30 and E34/E32 anything after that is just complete shite
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:16 pm

I dont know what to say, you must be absolutely gutted...I take it this was the fettled Apina head? :(


Epic smashing btw, your lucky you aint got a hole in the top of the piston like i did.

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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:26 pm

Streuth, that's not a pretty sight. :( Hard luck indeed, after all that work. Can't the pistons be used as they are, and just get another head on it to see how it runs?

It appears that only No.3 crown is lightly marked by the valve - given a decent build-up of carbon, it may well be good for many more miles...
Last edited by Speedtouch on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:29 pm

As i was reading that i was thinking loose valve seat, makes sense as all other valves are intact with no contact so this has nothing to do whatsoever with your earlier dramas. Think id be a bit miffed about the slugs but theres not much you can do about it unless you can get the machine shop who did the valve seats to admit they did something wrong but i seriously doubt that.

just get on with the rebuild and make sure you get the cam sprocket on right this time doofus :D
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:33 pm

ouch!

ok so cylinder three exhaust valve seat dislodged and was smashed up as the piston came up, I guess the pieces chewed up the inlet valve, but how on earth did bit's get into the other cylinders and cause damage?
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Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:49 pm

F UCK ME SIDEWAYS! :eek:

I can only begin to imagine how you are feeling right now!
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:57 pm

That's nasty! Isn't it possible that the valve got damaged first and then smashed the seat up?
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:57 pm

Mate I could cry for you.

Proper sickener that is.
When mine nipped at least it did no damage. I was on the floor then, I can't imagine how your feeling!!!!

To far down the road to give up now though

Do we think it can be saved??? :(
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:01 pm

Rodderz wrote:That's nasty! Isn't it possible that the valve got damaged first and then smashed the seat up?
The seat has come out from under the valve that is relatively ok 2nd pic, if I'm not mistaken?
Simon13 wrote:This is exactly as how i removed the head and what it looked like. I'll let the pictures do the talking but its not pretty

totally and utterly f**ked i think is about right


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its gone!
I said:

Can anyone suggest how to test if the boot lights are staying on with the boot shut?

e30topless said:

lock the wife in there
Martinaston
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:27 pm

Could be the valve just got stuck in the new guide and then just fuqed up both seats.
Whatever it was its done now.
Bad luck Si.
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:29 pm

:(
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:29 pm

Fuuuuck :eek: , absolutely sickening, feel for you Si
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:31 pm

If your like me and f*ck up's seem to visit you with alarming regularity, it's not a
bad idea to run over the procedure again just to be sure you have it nailed.

So what the hell did we do all that crap for?
Well to time the camshafts in we need to be able to set the crankshaft to an exact degree.
In the case of the cam's we're using (Schrick 276 & 284) those points will be
106 degrees "after top dead centre" (ATDC) for the inlet cam
and 106 degrees "before top dead centre (BTDC) for the exhaust cam.
And now that the degree wheel is accurately set we can be happy that when the pointer
shows 106 degrees then it's on the money.
When it comes to timing in cams you've got to try to be as accurate as possible.
Sloppy cam timing can at best loose you a little horse power, or at worst, result in
bent valves.

The above was copied from X-works M3 rebuild thread. Could this be anything to do with
Simons grief, or should I stick to Football threads :?:
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