Worlds longest Resto, my C2 2.7 19/3/18 Vent guage action

[Simon13]

No can do on hols in Devon

[Dezzy]

Si, take no notice of Bumalot. He can't help acting like a queen. It's just what they are like.

[Demlotcrew]

No can do on hols in Devon

Me neither, it doesn't look like its going to be a good turn out.

[Steve]

lets try to keep this on track guys. I'm sure Simon needs more shite like a cork up his arse.

Spot on

lets not turn an epic thread in to another pile of crap.

We need to see the cam sorted and this car up and running again

[Speedtouch]

I wouldn't mind betting he'd like to ram that cranky cam up someone's 4rse!

[Andyboy]

There's merit in both sides of the argument. I think the most you can hope for in this instance is either a new cam or a discount on another one.
Sadly, there is no such thing as a performance camshaft that can be guaranteed to be timed 100% correctly on the factory marks/dowels. Every professional engine builder would be checking the valve to piston clearance and also setting up the cam timing with a protractor and dial gauge as well as a vernier pulley. Okay, so Schrick are a cut above the likes of Kent and Piper but to be fair to them, they can't have a 'one size fits all' cam. In this instance, a vernier pulley would have allowed you to set the cam timing correctly and avoid all of this. The moral of the story is "assume nothing = it makes an ass out of u and an ass out of me".

[Demlotcrew]

Andy, a great man once told me, assumptions are the mother of all f=ckups!

[DanThe]

There's merit in both sides of the argument. I think the most you can hope for in this instance is either a new cam or a discount on another one.
Sadly, there is no such thing as a performance camshaft that can be guaranteed to be timed 100% correctly on the factory marks/dowels. Every professional engine builder would be checking the valve to piston clearance and also setting up the cam timing with a protractor and dial gauge as well as a vernier pulley. Okay, so Schrick are a cut above the likes of Kent and Piper but to be fair to them, they can't have a 'one size fits all' cam. In this instance, a vernier pulley would have allowed you to set the cam timing correctly and avoid all of this. The moral of the story is "assume nothing = it makes an ass out of u and an ass out of me".

How much is s schrick cam, £400 odd? Are you just paying for a stick with lobes chucked on? If you cant 'assume' the pulley fixing is timed up perfectly then whats to say the lobes are not timed up?

[Demlotcrew]

You're completely missing the point, the cam needs to be dialled in, the dowel hole is a locking mechanism for the varnier pulley (if you have ever seen one then you'll know how it works) not a timing mark!

Even a head skim can affect the timing (retarding both inlet and exhaust). The lobes are not simply chucked on, I will post a photo of one of my BMW Motorsport blanks at home, you will see what they start off as.

My theory is that second hole which was capped off is a manufacturing by product if the machines at Schrick have changed. You check the timing of the lobes with a dial gauge as can be seen here;

[Jozi]

Do ye not think that maybe it's best to wait and see the outcome rather than blaming this and that, it's been going on long enough I'm sure Simon doesn't need to hear any of it.

[DanThe]

You're completely missing the point, the cam needs to be dialled in, the dowel hole is a locking mechanism for the varnier pulley (if you have ever seen one then you'll know how it works) not a timing mark!

Even a head skim can affect the timing (retarding both inlet and exhaust). The lobes are not simply chucked on, I will post a photo of one of my BMW Motorsport blanks at home, you will see what they start off as.

My theory is that second hole which was capped off is a manufacturing by product if the machines at Schrick have changed. You check the timing of the lobes with a dial gauge as can be seen here;

1. This is not motorsport
2. M20's dont come with a vernier pulley!

IF Schrick designed the cam to be used with a vernier then why doesnt the cam come with one? Surely they know the M20 doesnt have a vernier?

OR.... why are there not instructions/warnings on the side of the box in big fook off text saying DO NOT FIT TO A STANDARD ENGINE!!!! ONLY USE DIAL GUAGE AND VERNIER!!!!





Im not missing the point at all, I can see the point you are making but IMO its irrelevant in this case

[Dezzy]

Do ye not think that maybe it's best to wait and see the outcome rather than blaming this and that, it's been going on long enough I'm sure Simon doesn't need to hear any of it.

Sounds like a good idea to me!

Nice little chat today Andrew. Made my day that one. Your a funny guy!

[Demlotcrew]

Dan, it totally depends on the cam used and how deep the valve reliefs are on the pistons, maybe some of the really tame ones could get away with no vernier (ive never tested this), but the more aggressive ones have to be dialled in. Ogz's cam is dialled in with a vernier.

Schrick cams are not aimed at DIY installs and generally come with a comprehensive booklet outlining minimum requirements!

I will dig my copy out tonight.

Dan i know this is not a motorsport engine, but you did question lobe timing Why did make the point if you had no intention of considering it might get concise reply?

Our opinions will have to differ, but I'm basing mines on practical experience.

[DanThe]

Id like to see some instructions, AFAIK the particular cams are designed to bolt into any standard 325i engine?
Im basing my opinion on the fact Si has done the same build with the same cam without problems

[Andyboy]

By the same token, where does it say in the Schrick leaflet 'this cam will have spot on timing and does not require checking or adjustment'?

The M20 doesn't come with a vernier. It's an old fashioned engine made to pretty close tolerances at the factory with plenty of valve to piston clearance. This Schrick cam....it's for a 325i, right? If so, Schrick have worked out how it all works, how fast the piston is coming up the bore towards the valve during a revolution of the crank and they know what the standard valve to piston clearance is.
But this isn't a 325i. It's a 2.7 with a longer stroke, higher piston speeds, different rods and different pistons. It's not the same. To just assume it'll work because it did in another engine has led to valve to piston contact.
I can't think an old fashioned 2 valve per cylinder engine (i.e Ford Pinto, A Series etc) where you just put the cam in and don't time it up. It's basic performance engine building practice.

Of course, the cam could well be faulty but you need to check all the same.

[Demlotcrew]

Dan, well actually, there was quite a difference, the rods and pistons were different, the head was different, all this adds up and COULD have eaten in to the allowable tolerances, this is why its imperative to dial in the cam and check for clearances!

If he was fitting a stock BMW cam then yes what you say would be correct.

[DanThe]

I know about the work he has done, but what you are saying is more or less that its ok for Schrick to put the locating hole anywhere they feel like?

Its all well saying should have done this should have done that but its too late now.
Maybe you could have helped out with your valuable information when Si first reported his problems?

Im just trying to make points about why I feel Schrick should be coughing up for a new cam

FWIW my M50 non vanos cams came with no instructions, just a label with part number on the boxes.

[jmpwr]

http://www.avl-schrick.com/dat/MK/Nocke ... 102005.pdf

[bss325i]

Dan, it totally depends on the cam used and how deep the valve reliefs are on the pistons, maybe some of the really tame ones could get away with no vernier (ive never tested this), but the more aggressive ones have to be dialled in. Ogz's cam is dialled in with a vernier.

Oz's is dialled in with a vernier because the block is decked by 3mm.

[Demlotcrew]

For those that are actually intrerested in learning something as a posed to trolling with drivel here is what a cam shaft blank looks like. Ignore the fact its rusty, take it as an illustration of how much work goes in to every single cam!

The comparison is an S14 Schrick 284º - The last two show the installation instructions and a drop in cam specific data sheet, showing duration, lift, timing etc.

















Not sure why you didn't get any Instructions Dan.

[DanThe]

The only one trolling is you! "Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted" comes to mind.

That blank cam picture means nothing, as I said before whats to say they didnt get the lobes in the right place? Apparently it doesnt matter if they get the cam sprocket locating hole in the right place so why not

[e30topless]

is that dowel hole in the right place ? or did the Manufacturers just drill it where ever they felt like it?

[Demlotcrew]

Dan it's very easy to test the lobe location and timing with a dial gauage as shown in the photo of the engine above, the point of the blank is to show the lobes are not simply "stuck" on but are actually machined in a very precise process.

For your information, I tired on at least two occasions to help Simon, he was not in both times.

Simon still needs to fit another cam when it comes so the horse has yet to "bolt" ;) you really should take some time to read the instructions linked above.

[DanThe]

I used the term 'stuck on' bluntly, do you really think im that stupid I need to see pictures of a blank cam?

[Demlotcrew]

is that dowel hole in the right place ? or did the Manufacturers just drill it where ever they felt like it?

No it's capped off......how are you helping topless?

[Demlotcrew]

I used the term 'stuck on' bluntly, do you really think im that stupid I need to see pictures of a blank cam?

Apparently so.....

[DanThe]

is that dowel hole in the right place ? or did the Manufacturers just drill it where ever they felt like it?

Looks to be at TDC to me Steve, who the fook would have thought it!

[DanThe]

I used the term 'stuck on' bluntly, do you really think im that stupid I need to see pictures of a blank cam?

Apparently so.....

So can you give a 'real' reason for posting such irrelevant information other than you have a "big gay motorsport" blank cam in your loft?

[Demlotcrew]

Absolutely

1. To illustrate that lobes are not stuck on and are actually machined on.
2. To illustrate what a blank cam looks like to those who have never seen one.

If it bores you Dan move on, you don't see me posting on your build threads

[DanThe]

If its ok with you I will 'stick' around and see how Si gets on with the supplier/manufacturer of the cam, and also advise where I can to try and prevent any possible fck ups. If he is in of course

[Rav335uk]

[youtube][/youtube]

[DanThe]

Rav you dont know the half of it!

[e30topless]

No it's capped off......how are you helping topless?

interesting, so why would it be there if it is to be capped off ?

that's an S14 cam I fail to see how thats helping either, that's a completely different ball game

Please educate me Andrew, this is all new to me after fitting many,many M20 schrick/kent cams and using the dowel to locate the cam pulley,

I can safely say I have never once had a screw up using this method before, Having said that I have never seen 2 locating holes either on any M20 cam aftermarket or not ?

I firmly believe the part is at fault,

ok.. so there could have been a way around it by adding a Vernier which isn't needed here, and a little hindsight is a wonderfull thing,

but I'm taking simons side here..not schricks after all they are a respectable supplier who are supposed to know their game, sadly it seems not ...

[Rav335uk]

Do tell Dan

[DanThe]

Do tell Dan

No, its a secret


Motorsport innit Steve