MegaSquirt vs MAF and unichip or other pggy back

[Onz]

Hey guys,

I was doing some reading last night on piggy back ECU fitting and found some interesting info from a company called Perfect Power. They produce a piggy back chip like the Unichip.

I was wondering what advantages does MS provide over a versatile piggy back system?

[Gunni]

A piggyback is bound by the maximum input sensing of the original system.
i.e the maximum of 5v from the AFM for instance, more flow will still only be 5v
so it starts to lean or throw error codes.

A standalone allows your to select the unit you want to use to measure air flow and thus the maximum flow measurable.

The SMT6 from PP is amazingly versatile for a cheap piggyback.
On a M20 the PP could be used to run extra injectors for fuel. Which is both very good, while also beeing potentially
problematic,
1. Extra injectors high up in the air stream allow for a longer time period for the fuel and air to mix which will make more power per amount of fuel.

2. Fuel distribution may not be equal between cylinders but that´s more of a injector location problem.

[M5pilot]

Piggyback ECU's are good for tweaking. Unfortunately they are not cheap once you factor in mapping.

Standalone's give you full control but perfecting the map is hard work. Building in the safety margins is essential and this is often left out in most cases.

Megasquirt is a cheap and cheerful way of getting some control but from what I've seen it's a little unreliable and really not upto VEMS. MBE or most other makes of standalone for that matter.

[Onz]

will a MAF conversion help or hinder MS?

[Ant]

neither dude

the MAF is just another method of metering the load on the engine, provided there's no physical restriction ( AFM flap) the end results are more of a reflection on the mapping, than anything else.

MS( and others) will do SD( AFM/MAF/MAP ) metering or pure Alpha N( TPS/RPM as load ) by default, all have merits and dowsides.

What is your goal ?

[Onz]

reliability, quicker response ability to change maps based on type of driving. I really want to be able to press a button and have a track car then switch maps for economy on the motorway.

I really just want my car to respond better and release a few more horses based on situation.

(we still booked in for 25/03? )

[M5pilot]

If you can make it down to us your welcome to a test drive of the Alpina C2 we have here running on standalone. From the sound of it will give you exactly what your after:

Lighting throttle response
Efficient fuel economy at cruising speeds
Excellent power and torque

You don't really need a different map for track and road. A well developed MAP will give both efficiency and power.

The only time people want a different map is to run different types of fuel.

[blingsta]

whats the standalone on the c2 Sal ?

[M5pilot]

MBE

Been on there for quite some time.

[blingsta]

i take it that costs more than the m/s? does it come as complete kit etc?

[agreen]

free fitting ?

[Onz]

I was considering a MAF and standalone so that the ecu can measure air intake from the MAF. I know that with s/a you can just junk the afm or maf but if the maufacturer put it there it must be for a reason right?

is this a valid mod or will I just be wasting my time with a maf as well as s/a

[M5pilot]

It is in a different league to MS. You look at the inside of an MBE and an MS and you'll understand!

Personally it's not something I would use again as the tuning software is very tricky to use. The hardware itself is absolutely brilliant.

We'll be fitting AEM, Haltech and VEMS in the near future. We have some very interested things coming up in the standalone scene for newer M cars!

[dom-1984-320i]

Can i ask a stupid question..... i have been meaning to ask this for a while, What is megasquirt and what does it do? Sorry to be a div. It sounds like the tittle of one of the movies i have under my bed!

[M5pilot]

You'll have to understand the pros and cons of all of the various methods for you to make up your mind.

Your welcome to call us or drop by for more indepth explanation.

[Onz]

Gunni seems to like VEMS also alot of the nissan guys use it and now you are fitting it. Why does it seem to be preferred over MS?

[M5pilot]

Quality, reliability and lack of backup support are but a few of the many concerns.

MS is a hobby / DIY tool whereas the others ( Haltech, MBE, AEM, Vems etc) are professional tools.

Really don't want to turn this MS bashing in anyway, my concerns are echoed by many on this forum and in the tuning industry.

[Onz]

Can the same gains/effects be gained with all?

what usually goes wrong with MS? from what ive seen its quite good.

[FlappySocks]

Not surprised the tuning industry dont like MS... it's a hurting their sales big time. MS support is far better IMO, as its a community driven product. Information is shared, and problems are openly discussed.

If there are any reliability concerns, then its down to rouge traders (one of which has been openly exposed, with pictures of blown up boards, and shoddy wiring), or poor DIY implementation.

MS is a good product, at an honest price, with a growing community. Dont let Sal put you off Onz. You wont be satisfied with Motronic bolt-ons.

[Demlotcrew]

Dont Rule out Maxx!

[DaveD]

As I understand it (being a bit dim) these new ecu's do nothing on there own , isn't it down to the expertise of the person who does the mapping...and if you don't know how to do this yourself ....more expense!

[FlappySocks]

If you attach a wideband O2 sensor to MS (about £125), it will tune itself (I assume other aftermarket ECU's do the same). You will still need to fiddle with the bottom end of the rev range a bit, but it's basically all there and working. I haven't had mine professionally tuned, but as it stands, it's noticeably better than stock. I might get it down to Ant's one day and see how it's done properly ;)

The other thing is, MS users share their maps. I got my initial 325i map from someone online, and then let MS auto-tune it. All you have to do is drive up and down the road a bit, and it gets better as you go.

[Gunni]

Not surprised the tuning industry dont like MS... it's a hurting their sales big time. MS support is far better IMO, as its a community driven product. Information is shared, and problems are openly discussed.

If there are any reliability concerns, then its down to rouge traders (one of which has been openly exposed, with pictures of blown up boards, and shoddy wiring), or poor DIY implementation.

MS is a good product, at an honest price, with a growing community. Dont let Sal put you off Onz. You wont be satisfied with Motronic bolt-ons.

It comes down to manufacturing techniques.
Are you going to go on a long trek on a engine management that was soldered at home?

do you have any experience with support from the other manufacturers?
Do you understand what support means?

MS is reaching it´s evolutionary peak, it´s not going to be cheap anymore with more and more options added to it, so people will again have to assemble them by them selves to it goes back to manufacturing.

Support is NOT answering calls from DIY people at home trying to turn their family wagon into a race car.
All mapping and installations are the same, it comes down to the installer, his knowledge and eye for detail, the quality of the mapping and so on.

If you want to be able to install a system your self you are going to have to do ALOT ALOT ALOT of learning and reading. Some people seem to think that everybody can get a engine management going.


And then there is time,. Do you want to spend DAYS and WEEKS and sometimes months and save some money or just pay a professional some dosh and drive off with your car. When mapping is done it´s done, there shouldn´t be any re tunings unless things are changed.
The people that DO get engine managements going while not beeing professional are 90% in the IT/Electrical industry already.

[Gunni]

If you attach a wideband O2 sensor to MS (about £125), it will tune itself (I assume other aftermarket ECU's do the same). You will still need to fiddle with the bottom end of the rev range a bit, but it's basically all there and working. I haven't had mine professionally tuned, but as it stands, it's noticeably better than stock. I might get it down to Ant's one day and see how it's done properly ;)

The other thing is, MS users share their maps. I got my initial 325i map from someone online, and then let MS auto-tune it. All you have to do is drive up and down the road a bit, and it gets better as you go.

Auto tuning is not the way to do things.
What you need to do is spend good time on getting a perfect fuel map.
Then use the wideband sensor over time to counter the wear on the engine, as well as lower fuel coming from the injectors as they get dirty.

[e21Jason]

Hi

MS & VEMS use a simailer config software. MS is built using a soldering iron and the quality & reliabilty is effected by the quality of the build, VEMS has more onboard hardware and is built using surface mount technolgy so the manufacturing quality + relibialty is ahead of MS, and it runs onbaord wide band which is a big plus for diy tuning.

I'am doing a VEMS set up at the moment inplace of an old emrald system.

Jason

[Gunni]

There is new software beeing developed for VEMS.
The MegaTune software is horrible

[Onz]

Nice comments guys, this is really starting to paint a clear picture Just a couple of points though:

how does a wideband provide the information on engine wear?
and how do you know that your injectors are dirty from the S/A system?

[e21Jason]

Hi

First read a good book on basic engine tunning like performance 4 stroke tunning by graham bell. Fuel and air burns at an optimum raito (afr) for peak power (or economy) this is what the wideband measures. If you sufer engine wear etc the afr drops and the ecu can compensate by to bring the afr back to the target values.

Jason

[FlappySocks]

Errrr.. ok Gunni...

I would have thought a lot of zoners were into DIY. Classic car owners typically are, arn't they?

Anyway, I never once rubbished other aftermarket systems. Nor did I say any of this was easy.

[FlappySocks]

There is new software beeing developed for VEMS.
The MegaTune software is horrible

You have a choice with MS. MegaTune or Megatunix. Both have strengths and weakness. I think there is a PDA one too. If I ever find the time, I might have a stab at doing a basic client in C# for Mono & the Nokia N810.

[Gunni]

Errrr.. ok Gunni...

I would have thought a lot of zoners were into DIY. Classic car owners typically are, arn't they?

Anyway, I never once rubbished other aftermarket systems. Nor did I say any of this was easy.

your taking what I wrote a bit harsly.

DIY extends from mowing your own lawn to building your own helicopters.
Beeing a DIY mechanic is one thing, beeing a DIY electrical guru is another

Not surprised the tuning industry dont like MS... it's a hurting their sales big time. MS support is far better IMO, as its a community driven product. Information is shared, and problems are openly discussed.

How do you know that other manufactures have bad support?

What those so called expensive systems have is fault reading, fault diagnostics, datalogging capabilities, more control over more things.
alot more closed loop stuff.

And some aren´t even that expensive.

[FlappySocks]

Gunni, I think we are talking about different markets. There is room for both. Some people want the satisfaction of building a system from scratch, with all the learning that goes with it.. Others want to pay someone else to do it. There is nothing wrong with either.

There is of course middle ground. Some people want an installed system at MS prices. Thats where the problems begin IMO. There is support for this, but finding a good supplier/installer is key.

And my point about support is from a DIY perspective. No need to get defensive about alternative kit... i'm sure its great.

[tim_s]

As Ant and others on here will probably testify (and probably some old threads on here), I was really sceptical with megasquirt at first, but now I am very much a convert. My experiences are that MS was a real headache to get working and a steep learning curve, not helped because I was the first person that i know of to install in a 318is, but once it's been up and running i've done over 25k miles on mine without hitch. The soldering at home argument really doesn't wash, if that's an issue, buy one from Bill S or from diyautotune in the states, then you're buying a unit that's properly assembled and tested by pros. It's even less of a concern now with the SMB board:


I agree that megatune is not fantastic, but its usable and I use megalogviewer to alter my maps anyway which is really nice to use. Ultimately my car makes great power and drives really well on megasquirt and i have no concerns about its reliability - it's proved itself for a year and a half on my car. I agree with gunni about the cost argument though, MS2 SMB boards are not all that cheap, and with sequential injection and stuff on the horizon will only get more expensive. Still, MS2 represents awesome value for money, I'm chuffed with its resolution etc.

Oh, and I've also tried a PP SMT6 in my IS, even with gunni and PP support's help I couldn't get it to work well so i ripped it out and sold it. Problems included running lean on WOT with the AFM interrupted by the unit - even adjusting the map couldn't get it rich enough, sites in the map not being interpolated so MAP conversion not running smoothly, PP support giving up at trying to support my install. I'm not bashing this or any other products, just giving my personal experience.

[hoshy]

My take on it all:

Piggy back if you need to only to tweak around small n/a mods or you have an a modern car with CAN bus etc that makes traditional standalone a problem.

Go standalone if you want full control, a fun project or it's for a significantly modded engine (high psi turbos etc)

As to which one to choose the choices IMHO it breaks down like this:

1. You want to fit yourself a tested reliable proven standalone - choose a commercial, pre-built MS or anything else like Emerald, Omex, SMT etc - base your choice on price vs. feature set vs. people you know with experience on that system.

2. You want to fit yourself a system and then learn, hack, play, create and generally have fun with EFI(and ignition) - choose Megasquirt, nothing else gives you the price, learning curve, flexibility and satisfaction.

3. You've spec'd your car and are sending it into a garage to have all the parts fitted and mapped - In this case always go with what the tuner is more comfortable with. If he's an emerald wizz don't try and force them in to their first MS build - you'll get better results if they stick to what they know best.

On that point I'd say if ant is working on your car, let him fit MS. If you're sending it to Sal then let him use unichip or whatever standalone is his preference.

At the end of the day they all do the same this, more or less, and the differences in result are probably more down to the individual tuner than anything. I'm sure a poorly tuned Omex will have its arse handed to it by a well set-up Megasquirt!


Just my take on it all, I know I don't do it for a living but that's my opinion none the less

[M5pilot]

Very good post Hoshy.

It's good to see that it's the ability of the mapper that determines the actual end result.

There are those who have dyno's and use the best systems on the market and still get poor results!