Standalone ECU..

[Ant]

Why would you need one ?

OK, lets say you plan an upgrade/cam swop etc etc, the std motronic will need remap to get the best from the modifications, most people opt for a chip at this point, and it serves the purpose well.

now, once you've got used to the extra power, you add a 6 branch and big bore Throttle body, again all proven mods, and desirable.
again, revisions to the mapping are required again, so another chip/custom mapping session, and away we go again.

Now the lure of even more comes to the boil..... its enivetable

Now, this is where the standalone soloution presents itself.

Any size injectors, MAF/AFM/MAP/ TPS load sensing options, MAP and TPS only offering max bhp/tq gain due to zero restriction intakes, add a turbo later on, supercharge, nitrous 3.0 stroker kit, swop in a Nissan SR20 lump, the options are almost limitless.

Now, I realise I'm preaching to the converted here, but when in your opinion should the motronic and AFM combo head for the bin ?

opinions invited, should prove interesting I hope, I've not added a poll, as discussion is always more fun

[Jhonno]

depends on time scale of doing the mods.. altho you can remap them, its not cheap to keep doing so

if your doin it all in one go then straight away, but if your gonna do it over time them i'd say once youve done the basics of exhaust etc n are gonna be adding the cam and headwork would be the time

[Turbo-Brown]

Dude, ya missed throttle bodies off the list!

Seems to me that with the chips working so well, it might not be worth going standalone untill FI comes into the equation, unless that is throttle bodies are gonna be added.

[e30_Turbo]

I'm in a sort of "how did I live without one" situation, like mobile phones etc.

Having "learned" ( and thats the key thing ) how to use my standalone I find it the best toy I ever had, serious.

The cost is an issue when compared to upgraded chips that we are very fortunate to have at such LOW prices, other makes and models are not as lucky as us and can only really go standalone or piggyback, no remaps or chips allowed!

For everyday e30 man, who likes back lane blasting and tinkering, a chip is def best choice, easy install, good results. For those more willing to bolt extra bits on and want to really get the max outta the engine, then it's standalone all the way.

I can't say enough about MS, the way it's been developed open source, the community it has, the diverse and interesting cars it's been used on and the fact it sooooo easy to get a grip on makes it so worth the cost.

I witnessed a post on msefi the other day where a punter had a funny issue with his MS and with in a day the programmers had written him an additional set of program instructions to allow him to get it going, I like people like that.

Even fitted and mapped in the uk it's two thirds of the cost of just the emerald box let alone mapping time and don't forget MBE weighs in @ Bexleys at near £1.5k.

I'd like to hope one day we'll have a common standalone community so we can all swap, learn and develope our engines to achieve the ultimate goal, MORE POWER

just my 2p

Mark.

[Ant]

good good, excellent points raised so far.

Dude, ya missed throttle bodies off the list!

Seems to me that with the chips working so well, it might not be worth going standalone untill FI comes into the equation, unless that is throttle bodies are gonna be added.

Ooops, TB's , I'll edit the post above

Good point rasied on the cost of chips, Superchavs would want £250 ish to chip your E30, myself and others offer product at a reduced cost as a higher volume, dedicated service.

Given a chip @ £250 retail, and a custom motronic remap to fully make the best of your mods a lol more still, looking at the bigger picture, are they such an attractive soloution ?

Ms/Emerald etc etc are the toys you always wanted, the question raised is @ which point do you need them.......

more points please peeps, I do have an opinion, but I'll save that for later on

[tim_s]

the jury's still out for me on this one. piggyback ECU things seem to have been missed out of the consideration so far. having experience of piggybacks in the past, I'm not yet an 100% convert to MS. i figured i would be pushing the boundaries of what a piggyback can do with my capacity up from 1.8 to 2.1, AFM gone etc. but there are plenty of examples of cars running seriously modified off of piggybacks and in hinsight i'm not sure what i'd do.
last wk paul at circuit motors was telling me about some 1.3 suzuki swift or something equally uninspiring that was running an S/C and 230bhp, more than double factory power, all controlled off a unichip.
Having had a bit of a struggle getting my MS hardware sorted and having already dolled out what it would have cost to have had the mother of all mapping sessions on a piggyback just to get the ball rolling with MS (it still needs quite a bit of work - ant, you get my pm?), the simplicity (and cheaper price) of a piggyback over a standalone solution still appeals, especially with something like the M42 which has a pretty decent setup out of the box. with a piggyback that can trap the load signal and allow you to run MAP or MAF, i reckon it would be pretty slick without the hassles of MS or emerald and with the perfect starting, warmup etc that you get by keeping the OEM motronic with its $$$ spent on development. i'm also still a bit worried about reliability with MS.

[bigkev]

just how much dosh are you looking at to supply and set up the megasquirt system (ballpark figure)
it sounds good to me but the cost is a major factor above ease of use
i am assuming the megasquirt can be removed and fitted to another vehicle if you desire

[Simon13]

for me i want to get my 2.7 running stock power first so 210bhp and 213lbs or there abouts. Get used to it and then maybe play a bit.

I'm not going throttle bodies because i don't want to detract too far from originality.

As far as i'm aware a standalone system would give me a few bhp and better throttle response. It's never going to make alot more power than 210bhp anyways, 220 of bhp and torque would be great but quite hard to achieve i think. The nature of a 2.7 means they are easy car to drive quick and fun due to the get up and go nature of it.

The only real things i have planned are

M3 electric fan - already have
lose the throttle body water pip - to do
6 branch - already have
Early 325i rad- need to fit
M3 evo 2 airbox - need to bloody find one! only the plastic box
Camshaft maybe 274/274 area

Then replace, rebuild the lump run it in and rolling road it all along the way.

I'd be happy if i could find someone to re map the motronic as i've heard it's a bit tricky but still quite a good system?

[Turbo-Brown]

Sorry to go off topic!

But what's the diff between the early and late 325i rads out of interest?

[Simon13]

it's a different shape basically not as wide as a facelift one.

This will give me more room Airbox side to fit M3 one because M3 box is considerably bigger than a stock airbox

[Andy335Touring]

If an F/I conversion or ITB's are planned then a stand alone ECU or piggy back ECU will be needed.

If it's just some normal mods like BBTB/six branch/cam that are going on a DD car then a remapped chip or piggy back might be a more practical solution but it all comes down to what you want to acheive and how involved you want to be.

Fit and forget or keep tweaking ?

Systems with MAF or AFM's can help a little to make the system need less tweaking because they can measure and compensate for small air flow changes like an air filter thats past it's best or a change of exhaust.

For the people who's car is an on going thing mod wise and who crave some involvement in the development of there car/engine then some thing like a stand alone ECU with a WBO2 sensor is great. Make a change like a cam/BBTB/etc then optimize the fueling to suit the new mod, it's a good feeling to me to have an input into my car that you can actually feel the benifit of what you have just done/adjusted.

Another big factor is cost, only you can make that choice.

[JazzMan]

Im sticking to the wild zone chip to start with. I'll be running a BMC CDA, custom exhaust and a BBTB. I want to drop the AFM eventually and add a cam at which point I'm think MS or Emrald. Depending on where my ticking is coming from I might get different injectors as well.

[Ant]

Good points raised again here, liking this thread

with regard to piggy backs, due to the relative high cost I've not factored them in, agreed the ease of use aspect does make them an attractive proposition , but the halfway house approach has never got me that excited, I had considered the perfect power and others but went for the full monty in the end just because I wanted to be able to do anything, to anything if that makes sense?

Tim, yeah got your PM dude, will re-read and reply today mate, been madness this week, but I will say relaibilty with Ms, in my experience is faultless, no issues and I've gladly taken my car for 300+ mile trips without even thinking... what if ??? confidence in the product grows with familiarity dude.

Final word today on the standalones.... it gives the end user ( you ! ) ultimate control and diagnostic ability over the chosen application, who can say better than that ?

[Dan318-is]

with regard to piggy backs, due to the relative high cost I've not factored them in, agreed the ease of use aspect does make them an attractive proposition , but the halfway house approach has never got me that excited,

I think if your running a turbo monster like your own then standalone is vital. But for a peasant student like me whos only run basic mods such as a throttle body and a chip, losing the AFM but not haivng to remap everything MS style would be quite useful; hence why im saving up for SMT. I just think going fully standalone on a non modded car is pretty pointless.

Obviously if i had the money i would

[Ant]

sly BTT for this thread, expected more comments TBH, I guess everyone is happy with what BMW decided was the best compromise then ?

no-one ever wish that annoying fuelling glitch could be eradicated ? , ever wish for better cruise fuel consumption ? better throttle response( night and day better in most cases BTW )

have I made this to technical ?

[d6dph]

I think i would seriously think about a stand alone system if i was going to the extremes of hunting every last hp from the engine.

At the moment i cant see me requiring anything more than a chip (which is being sorted as we speak), Depending on the future plans i may reconsider but i feel its a wasted effort on my car.

Obviously cars like Andys 335i, Ants 325 turbo etc would be a no brainer as to management, but im not convinced for my personal use it would be of benefit.

Unless you can convince me otherwise Ant??

[Rich_W]

I reckon that as soon as you want to go beyond bolt on/normal tuning is the time to go for an aftermarket system. So Exhaust, Air Filter and Cams will be fine, but anything that requires the engine to be apart neccessitates the better control to make the most of whats availaible, and crucially (as above) be ready to accept any further modifications.


What actually surprises me more though is that people look at MS or Emerald or even Motec. Rather than the stuff thats fitted to current BMW's. Coming from the Ford world, I know many people bin there K-Jet system on the RST's for Cosworth management. Surprised no body had tried a E46 M3 management on a 325. Though maybe all the emmisions control stuf would be a hinderance.

[tbmw]

have been thinkin about this myself
ant how much would you charge to build a system, to control fuel and spark??

how hard is ms to tune for someone with limited computer knowledge?

[Dan318-is]

What actually surprises me more though is that people look at MS or Emerald or even Motec. Rather than the stuff thats fitted to current BMW's. Coming from the Ford world, I know many people bin there K-Jet system on the RST's for Cosworth management. Surprised no body had tried a E46 M3 management on a 325. Though maybe all the emmisions control stuf would be a hinderance.

I think Tim_s spent a lot of time looking in to e36 management on his New Is project but it just doesnt go. Its because of a number of reasons from what i can remember. For instance most e30s dont have provisions for knock or lambda sensors, something all bmws from e30s onwards do. Also, think they started to introduce EWS an all that sort of stuff?