Roofy

[BristolE30]

Hey guys,

Just picked up this great 325i however my eyes are already all over the details.

How screwed am I with these bubbles?

P/o said he had mechanic remove roof liner and there was no rust coming through but I’m skeptical.

Cheers for advice
Jo

[Cloggy Saint]

I would be a bit concerned by this. A roof will rot from the inside out so there's a chance this is the tip of the iceberg. Cross your fingers and take the liner out.

[BristolE30]

I would be a bit concerned by this. A roof will rot from the inside out so there's a chance this is the tip of the iceberg. Cross your fingers and take the liner out.

Will do. Is it fairly easy to remove roof liner?

Also on a side note, I’m wanting to replace the roof seal for the winter and have found a silicon one, aftermarket by some guys called East Kent classic trim supplies. Wondering if a rubber one would be better than the felt BMW one?

Cheers
Jo

[tiw30]

I'm fairly sure your not going to like what you find, this is where they go, the drains rot out and in time the cassette rots through and ito the roof. The roof is probably salvageable (just) but you will need to find someone capable and the cassette will need salvaged fron a good car and fitted to your which will be the problem. Have you had it long, this is the only thing kills these cars if you haven't had it long I would approach the seller as he is telling lies or his mechanic is telling lies, the panel infront of the sunroof need removed to see this but first you need to remove sunvisors and slide the sunroof back, remove the strip holding the flipup spoiler there are two star head screws holding the trim in front below this. But i don't think you will have to go this far, just slide the roof back and the corners of the sunroof recess are likely in a bad way.
In my view the first thing you should look at when buying an E30 is the roof, if there is no sunroof you have a rare gem and no worries if you have one proceed with caution.
Perhaps this warning should be added into the E30 buying guide in the Wiki its mentioned under bodywork - roof but not the buying guide

[Stephenmoooore]

That definitely looks like rot from the inside. Take a small, sharp screwdriver and prod the area to see if it goes through.
Sunroof seal is not designed to keep water completely out, so unless it's completely manky, nothing will be gained from a new one. Like the doors and the sills, it's all about removing the water once it's in there.

[BristolE30]

I'm fairly sure your not going to like what you find, this is where they go, the drains rot out and in time the cassette rots through and ito the roof. The roof is probably salvageable (just) but you will need to find someone capable and the cassette will need salvaged fron a good car and fitted to your which will be the problem. Have you had it long, this is the only thing kills these cars if you haven't had it long I would approach the seller as he is telling lies or his mechanic is telling lies, the panel infront of the sunroof need removed to see this but first you need to remove sunvisors and slide the sunroof back, remove the strip holding the flipup spoiler there are two star head screws holding the trim in front below this. But i don't think you will have to go this far, just slide the roof back and the corners of the sunroof recess are likely in a bad way.
In my view the first thing you should look at when buying an E30 is the roof, if there is no sunroof you have a rare gem and no worries if you have one proceed with caution.
Perhaps this warning should be added into the E30 buying guide in the Wiki its mentioned under bodywork - roof but not the buying guide

Hey mate thanks for advice. I bought the car a couple days ago - do you think I should approach the seller?

The bubbles are pretty rock hard, and when I slide roof back you can see that there has been some work done before. I’ll post a photo.

I’ve found a specialist in Gloucester called Classic BahnStormers so hopefully they can help.

What price range are we talking do you think to sort it out? Is the car a write off in your opinion?

[BristolE30]

[BristolE30]

Over all though very happy with her. Everything else is totally mint.

[Cloggy Saint]

If the roof is rotten then everything else being 'totally mint' doesn't count for much unfortunately.

[martauto]

If the roof is rotten then everything else being 'totally mint' doesn't count for much unfortunately.

A tall order but as Brian say`s all can be fixed and if the rest is fine then maybe it`s worth putting right?
But at what cost, once done all is well

Mart.

[BristolE30]

If the roof is rotten then everything else being 'totally mint' doesn't count for much unfortunately.

A tall order but as Brian say`s all can be fixed and if the rest is fine then maybe it`s worth putting right?
But at what cost, once done all is well

Mart.

I'm choosing to side with Mart. Cloggy mate, are you talking from experience with rusty roofs or just speculating? Sounds like you'd have me pop it over to the scrapper tomorrow morning.

I'm taking it to BMW tomorrow as well as a local BMW classic specialist. Already had another quote from a normal body shop for around £800 - so fairly steep It's a common issue for E30's so seems a bit mad to write off so many. I'm happy to have some work done, it's not like I'm going to the track with it afterwards so cosmetically should be okay. Just how much work is needed is the question, and wether its worth mentioning the extent of it to p/o

Cheers

[Cloggy Saint]

Neither talking from experience or speculating, just going by what I've read on the zone over the past 15 years.

[biffer]

The two smaller bubbles near the gutter shows the rust has spread a looong way on the reverse of the panel.

A car of mine had similar rust,but luckily it turned out the sunroof-cassette itself was still rust-free.

I found it's perfectly possible to permanently repair bubbles like this at home,but every trace of rusty metal needs to be removed and the reverse side of the panel properly rust-proofed afterwards.This takes many hours and a real determination to do a thorough job.

A garage on the other hand will only have time to do a half-hearted job of searching out and removing all the rotten metal and so the rust will inevitably return.

[BristolE30]

Update: Car is at the body shop and the rot is revealed. Photo below. My only question is how on earth did the water get under there? Because both drain tubes are completely clear, and the drain tray that carries the water to these drain tubes is not rusty. So how is the water getting there!?

[BristolE30]

[BristolE30]

The two smaller bubbles near the gutter shows the rust has spread a looong way on the reverse of the panel.

A car of mine had similar rust,but luckily it turned out the sunroof-cassette itself was still rust-free.

I found it's perfectly possible to permanently repair bubbles like this at home,but every trace of rusty metal needs to be removed and the reverse side of the panel properly rust-proofed afterwards.This takes many hours and a real determination to do a thorough job.

A garage on the other hand will only have time to do a half-hearted job of searching out and removing all the rotten metal and so the rust will inevitably return.

Did you reach this reverse side by just removing head liner?

[BristolE30]

Next step metal is cut out and removed. Anyone have any ideas yet on the cause of this? The only thing the body shop can come up with is condensation from over the years. As there is no way any running water can reach where it is. And the frame is solid still. The cassette looks good also.

[flybynite]

One of mine is the same age (ironically same colour too) and has gone in exactly the same place (if it is at the back of the sunroof, hard to tell from the photos). The rust on the surface was not as bad (3x 5p size patches) but it is still roof-off and replace to sort it properly. Patching the roofskin is difficult to say the least to retain the shape. Filling a welded roofskin never lasts.

It starts between the roof skin and the strengthening section underneath with the oval cutouts. The rust protection on the sunroof cars has always been bad but seems particularly poor on on early facelifts.

It was always designed for water to get between the sunroof panel and roof. It is meant to drain out of the cassette down the drain pipes. A blocked drain, parked on a slope, who knows but water may have been sitting in the cassette and soaked the underside on a hot day.

If it helps, there is someone is making very good carbon roof skins (non-sunroof) these days.

[sweep]

Get it done and sorted not the end of the world for a competent body shop, too may keyboard warriors on here who earn there living by sitting at a desk all day not repairing cars.

[steve_k]

Get it done and sorted not the end of the world for a competent body shop, too may keyboard warriors on here who earn there living by sitting at a desk all day not repairing cars.

/\/\/\/\/\/\ this,

there's far to many on hee who would scrap that soon as they saw it,
find a proper competent bodyshop & they'll have that done pretty quick.

[steve_k]

1E99404B-7076-442E-AC95-6AE27F9D1C27.jpeg

my old tech 1 sport had that when i sold it, the guy who bought it cleaned it up & fibre glassed it from behind, last time i saw it it was still there with no more rust, mind you the guy used to rebuild reliant scimitar gte's for a living so knew what he was doing with the fibre glass.

[BenHar]

Bmw, in their wisdom, did not bother to paint in there.

Ben

[BristolE30]

Get it done and sorted not the end of the world for a competent body shop, too may keyboard warriors on here who earn there living by sitting at a desk all day not repairing cars.

Yep exactly the approach I am taking. The body shop guys don’t seem put off by it at all and will have it all done in a few more days! Hopefully another 20 years of life to it (or that area at least).

[BristolE30]

One of mine is the same age (ironically same colour too) and has gone in exactly the same place (if it is at the back of the sunroof, hard to tell from the photos). The rust on the surface was not as bad (3x 5p size patches) but it is still roof-off and replace to sort it properly. Patching the roofskin is difficult to say the least to retain the shape. Filling a welded roofskin never lasts.

It starts between the roof skin and the strengthening section underneath with the oval cutouts. The rust protection on the sunroof cars has always been bad but seems particularly poor on on early facelifts.

It was always designed for water to get between the sunroof panel and roof. It is meant to drain out of the cassette down the drain pipes. A blocked drain, parked on a slope, who knows but water may have been sitting in the cassette and soaked the underside on a hot day.

If it helps, there is someone is making very good carbon roof skins (non-sunroof) these days.

Yea I’ve been having a look at the sunroof deletes however, if this is the result after 30 years of sunroof use, if I fix it I’m hoping I’ll be able to use the sunroof! As it seems this inevitably happens, and my sunroof drains are working great.

[BristolE30]

1E99404B-7076-442E-AC95-6AE27F9D1C27.jpeg

my old tech 1 sport had that when i sold it, the guy who bought it cleaned it up & fibre glassed it from behind, last time i saw it it was still there with no more rust, mind you the guy used to rebuild reliant scimitar gte's for a living so knew what he was doing with the fibre glass.

Amazing, I’m hoping for similar results!!

[BristolE30]

Bmw, in their wisdom, did not bother to paint in there.

Ben

Classic. That does seem to be the issue as the frame under is perfect, just the roof skin not.

[biffer]

A good way to make repair last would be to keep the interior/boot bone dry- any long-term water-leak/damp problems under carpets etc. will encourage condensation/ further rust inside the roof.
Taking out the n/s interior-light will let you see into much of the reverse side of the repair (with aid of a torch).
Simply spraying WD40 or 3-in-1 {aerosol} oil onto back of new metal {maybe repeat once a year} would be all that's needed to preserve it.

[BristolE30]

A good way to make repair last would be to keep the interior/boot bone dry- any long-term water-leak/damp problems under carpets etc. will encourage condensation/ further rust inside the roof.
Taking out the n/s interior-light will let you see into much of the reverse side of the repair (with aid of a torch).
Simply spraying WD40 or 3-in-1 {aerosol} oil onto back of new metal {maybe repeat once a year} would be all that's needed to preserve it.

Good shout man, that’s an idea

[flybynite]

too may keyboard warriors on here who earn there living by sitting at a desk all day not repairing cars.

/\/\/\/\/\/\ this,
there's far to many on hee who would scrap that soon as they saw it,
find a proper competent bodyshop & they'll have that done pretty quick.

I hope that was not aimed at me, spent more than a few years spannering and panel-beating, brought many a car back from the dead undoing quite a few bodge jobs as I went. However (for better or worse) I only do things one way

Bmw, in their wisdom, did not bother to paint in there.

Not painted as such but it looks like a bare e-coat which is now at the end of its life. Unless this is protected the rust will now just keep coming back.

You need to kill the rust between the roof skin and the cassette/frame. Especially where the mastic bonding the sunroof onto the roofskin has shrunk leaving uncoated metal. If the e-coat has given up you need to paint it like BMW should have done in the first place. No easy way to do that with the sunroof cassette in the way.

I had my own opinion about the right way to do this to one of mine, speaking to a couple of bodyshops that do E30s (including the one that did BMR Barry’s M3) it seems I was probably optimistic.

You can patch it up, fill it and how long it will last will depend on how well you have killed the rust and protected underside of the repair. However next time you see rust there it is likely to be a much bigger problem needing roof panel, cassette and inner roof frame sections.

Sorted properly now it will be good for another 30 years

Many are dropping the sunroof cassette in good cars just to do this. Seen this being done, not that big a job really.

It all depends on what you want to do with the car, how long you are keeping it. But once rust has come through don’t be fooled into thinking it is an easy fix for the long term. A lot of the protection on these cars has reached end of life and needs renewing.

Ironically my henna chromie, 5 years older, seems to be much better protected.

[steve_k]

flybyenite, my comment was not aimed at you at all, it's just there's long been a thing on here with some of the supposedly more "established" members (who you barely see anymore) on here that if a roof has even the tiniest scab of rust then the car should head for the scrap yard,

yet anyone if so much as disagreed with them they would simply go off on one about the car & the owner.

so dont worry i was not having a go.

[flybynite]

flybyenite, my comment was not aimed at you at all, it's just there's long been a thing on here with some of the supposedly more "established" members (who you barely see anymore) on here that if a roof has even the tiniest scab of rust then the car should head for the scrap yard,

yet anyone if so much as disagreed with them they would simply go off on one about the car & the owner.

so dont worry i was not having a go.

No problem Steve, I do get a bit opinionated at times though It is just I have had a bit of a stark awakening about what's going to be needed to deal with two small scabs of rust on the roof here, even with my experience it was more than I thought when I started stripping back, proper can of worms.

It is certainly not going to the scrap heap but I do have a good roof section sitting here just in case

An Escort I did previously is still going strong today, nothing been needed on the body since I went through it 25 years ago, Couple of E30s here going to get the same treatment when I get time, hopefully with the same result.

[steve_k]

flybyenite, my comment was not aimed at you at all, it's just there's long been a thing on here with some of the supposedly more "established" members (who you barely see anymore) on here that if a roof has even the tiniest scab of rust then the car should head for the scrap yard,

yet anyone if so much as disagreed with them they would simply go off on one about the car & the owner.

so dont worry i was not having a go.

No problem Steve, I do get a bit opinionated at times though It is just I have had a bit of a stark awakening about what's going to be needed to deal with two small scabs of rust on the roof here, even with my experience it was more than I thought when I started stripping back, proper can of worms.

It is certainly not going to the scrap heap but I do have a good roof section sitting here just in case

An Escort I did previously is still going strong today, nothing been needed on the body since I went through it 25 years ago, Couple of E30s here going to get the same treatment when I get time, hopefully with the same result.

no worries,

i know what you mean, when you first see the little scab & think "oh it's only a little surface rust" then start picking at it & begin to wonder what you've got yourself into.

far to many get sent to the bone yard for something that would cost a few quid & a day or so to repair/fix,

as for the good roof section? good idea to have it in stock, i sealed the sunroof on my sport a while back & i've still got to fit the non sunroof headlining (not looking forward to that )

[BristolE30]

The body shop are going to take back the headliner and have their best at removing all the other rust, I can only trust them to try their best and enjoy the car!

I have seen some surface rust in the very centre of the roof skin, dead bang above the cassette. You can spy it in between the roof skin and sunroof when the sunroof is fully recessed. As you guys mentioned the only way to remove that would be to remove the cassette. Will have to be down the line jobby

[BristolE30]

far to many get sent to the bone yard for something that would cost a few quid & a day or so to repair/fix

Yep I’m trying to keep her alive not scrap it like some would have !

[steve_k]

far to many get sent to the bone yard for something that would cost a few quid & a day or so to repair/fix

Yep I’m trying to keep her alive not scrap it like some would have !

good man, you'll be glad you did.