Das auto the Germans their cars and us

[davidt]

BBC 2 9pm Sunday after Top Gear, looks interesting.

[magpie]

i'll be tooned in

[davidt]

It goes to BMW headquarters to see how the Germans use Allure and Seduction to sell cars

[Jesus325iTouring]

Thanks for the heads up, Sky+

[ah]

Did anyone get the reg numbers of the couple of E30s on the program.

[TPS]

Missed a lot of this, but its repeated on Monday night 11.20 BBC2

[rh306]

..nice pics of Neue Klasse's being manufactured, a Henna chromie, lots of E21 footage and some E30s driving into the underground car park on Park Lane in the 80s

[scallyally]

Re ah request for reg no's --B579 HVO (silver moredoor) & C367 POM? (last digit unclear) thanks to BBC iplayer.

[JF008]

Very interesting facts and lovely 70's-80's cars, on the German side anyhow

[ravstar13]

It was abit odd as top gear done a segment near the end on how great British engineering is,(Which made mr clarkerson upset). I agree some amazing stuff comes out if this island. But i think the time to build a strong reputation was missed while the Mercs and Bmws as well as vw were making a strong name for themselves with some epic cars. We were making Alegros and Princesses!!! Now it is too late. The British fords were great but when you compare the quality the Germans where miles ahead. Its a shame, we defiantly had the capabilities but the vision wasn't there. What Germans cars in your opinion are in the same bracket as the Princesses and alegros?? I cant even think of one tbh

[big_chris1981]

That henna red chromie could be the twin of mine! (except for the single mirror).

[Morat]

It was abit odd as top gear done a segment near the end on how great British engineering is,(Which made mr clarkerson upset). I agree some amazing stuff comes out if this island. But i think the time to build a strong reputation was missed while the Mercs and Bmws as well as vw were making a strong name for themselves with some epic cars. We were making Alegros and Princesses!!! Now it is too late. The British fords were great but when you compare the quality the Germans where miles ahead. Its a shame, we defiantly had the capabilities but the vision wasn't there. What Germans cars in your opinion are in the same bracket as the Princesses and alegros?? I cant even think of one tbh

I reckon the main problem was that while the West Germans were grateful to be working in a steady job while rebuilding their country and taking pride in their work our car workers were trying to use strikes as a tool for revolution and built shitty cars when they could be bothered to turn up to work.

[rh306]

It was abit odd as top gear done a segment near the end on how great British engineering is,(Which made mr clarkerson upset). I agree some amazing stuff comes out if this island. But i think the time to build a strong reputation was missed while the Mercs and Bmws as well as vw were making a strong name for themselves with some epic cars. We were making Alegros and Princesses!!! Now it is too late. The British fords were great but when you compare the quality the Germans where miles ahead. Its a shame, we defiantly had the capabilities but the vision wasn't there. What Germans cars in your opinion are in the same bracket as the Princesses and alegros?? I cant even think of one tbh

I reckon the main problem was that while the West Germans were grateful to be working in a steady job while rebuilding their country and taking pride in their work our car workers were trying to use strikes as a tool for revolution and built shitty cars when they could be bothered to turn up to work.

..that thing about engineering being a respected profession in Germany rang true as well. When I graduated all the engineering and science graduates went into law or accountancy to make a fast buck. Now the economy is a wreck, the financial services sector after the bailouts is running at a loss and we have no 'B' plan

[Automaton]

Everyone wants to get an MBA.
No one wants to get their hands dirty to produce something useful.

[ravstar13]

Sometimes I felt back then we backed some right rubbish cars and products when we should of demanded better. The whole Leyland group thing was a farce and in once swoop finished everything we had. We didnt move forward and perfect ,we just tried to get by and sell the stuff. We basically got lazy before we actually got to a level of excellence. I knew alot of people who for instance worked for fords but were driving other makes of cars,even with the discount, while im sure the Germans stuck to what they made because they were proud and knew they had made an awesome machine. We either slag our good stuff off or end up backing stuff that is absolutely rubbish. Its gonna be hard to crack what the Germans have done as they already thought of the future back then.....but at least we have fish and chips.

[Motorhole]

Sometimes I felt back then we backed some right rubbish cars and products when we should of demanded better. The whole Leyland group thing was a farce and in once swoop finished everything we had. We didnt move forward and perfect ,we just tried to get by and sell the stuff. We basically got lazy before we actually got to a level of excellence. I knew alot of people who for instance worked for fords but were driving other makes of cars,even with the discount, while im sure the Germans stuck to what they made because they were proud and knew they had made an awesome machine. We either slag our good stuff off or end up backing stuff that is absolutely rubbish. Its gonna be hard to crack what the Germans have done as they already thought of the future back then.....but at least we have fish and chips.

Exactly the same way as the British shipbuilding industry before it. Failure to modernise, trading on a reputation built up in years gone by. Until customers saw the light.

But of course, with employees not being a major share holding force (as is often the case with the Germans), directors take what they can out of the company, sell it on and move on to ruin another one.

[Jesus325iTouring]

I reckon the main problem was that while the West Germans were grateful to be working in a steady job while rebuilding their country and taking pride in their work our car workers were trying to use strikes as a tool for revolution and built shitty cars when they could be bothered to turn up to work.

There is no "I reckon" about it, that was the problem in a nutshell.

[JF008]

Can't put all the blame on the union workers, they just wanted better conditions and social benefits for their families. Repetitive striking is a sign of poor management. The same management were having meetings with engineers and designers discussing their products etc. and were making their workers build crappy old sheds.

[bab-91]

Didn't catch it because of work. Must strike so I can have a television, will catch it tonight in the mean time.


I don't think the British car industry is sunk, we just have a different industry model than Germany. We will never match them for numbers but for design & style of prestige (for want of a better term) cars we still have a place, much like Italy.

[Jesus325iTouring]

Can't put all the blame on the union workers, they just wanted better conditions and social benefits for their families. Repetitive striking is a sign of poor management. The same management were having meetings with engineers and designers discussing their products etc. and were making their workers build crappy old sheds.

So they striked and striked until all fell down around their ears. Way I see it is, if you're not happy with the conditions within which you work, find another job. Like it or lump it. A job is better than no job.
Ok so I don't know the conditions they were working in but i'm pretty certain it wasn't in the same vain as chinese sweat factories.

[magpie]

B-L workers would strike if there was no toilet paper in the toilet roll holder or no salt in the canteen salt cellar !

would anyone dare to build a mass produced fleet of British cars nowadays ?

[ravstar13]

I think management had a massive part to play. Your always gonna work flat out when your products are going to come back because they are falling to pieces. Which will always effect conditions as well as profits being made to re-invest to move forward and achieve quality. There Germans made a car and heard nothing from the customer because they sent out a car that (as we know as e30 owners ) will go on and on. According to the program ford apparently told the makers of mini that they were losing £30 or £60 per car they sold?? they were to arrogant or stupid to listen ...This shows you we worked in a weird and hap hazard way and never really had the top brass with the vision...yet they must of payed themselves very well.....but hay ho at least we gave walkers crisps

But the leyland group?? what was their big master plan ??? were they trying to be the VAG group of that time?

[harry_p]

Can't put all the blame on the union workers, they just wanted better conditions and social benefits for their families. Repetitive striking is a sign of poor management. The same management were having meetings with engineers and designers discussing their products etc. and were making their workers build crappy old sheds.

the same unions who wouldnt allow robots in our factories because they didnt want people to lose their jobs, then wonder why the cars theyre building don't sell (because theyre poorly built shite )

The british helped resurrect vw by rebuilding wolfsberg. The first bmw cars were rebadged austin sevens. The germans listened to the customers, and constantly improved and evolved their products to suit and worked with the unions instead of fighting against them and looking for any excuse to have a day off work.

The british carried on living on past glories built what they decided people would like and refused to modernise.

the honda, nissan and mini plants show that the uk workforce is up with the best in the world if it's given the right products to make, the right tools to make them, and management who have half a brain.

[Type15]

It was interesting enough but obviously biased and trying to make a point. It also omitted some real sh!te which came out of Germany. The VW K70 and the first Passats appeared to be made out of rust, and some early Golfs weren't much better. The NSU Ro80 was an exercise in futility and DB can still get it get wrong - witness the Maybach.

It also didn't mention that today the UK's Japanese plants have higher productivity than anywhere else in Europe,

Still not a bad programme and anything's better than all those Marinas, Itals and Allegros mind you.

[ah]

Re ah request for reg no's --B579 HVO (silver moredoor) & C367 POM? (last digit unclear) thanks to BBC iplayer.

B579 HVO and C367 PGM both died in early Y2K.

[Rav335uk]

I'll have to watch it on demand
Still on Holiday in the sun.

[hennabm]

I think they ran short of E30 promo film as they kept showing E21 stuff.

The E21, as we all know, was phased out in 82 with the 315 run out going until 83.

It was the E30 that made BMW in the UK in the 80s and those Yuppies.

Ah well, why spoil the story for the facts

[bab-91]

Caught it last, it was a great watch but the story of the British car industry made me want to buy a Jag.


WE WILL RISE AGAIN!!


We won't

[polsta]

its all how you look at it, the end of top gear still showed we make great stuff

No mention on the programme about ford- its an American company so to speak, but really its s British company building British cars in England not yank cars

Also money- BMW Merc etc cost a hell of a lot more than the crap cars they mentioned like metros and allegro

But still - the Germans do not have the craftsmanship and skills even now of us in terms if real quality work

How about the auto union car , the one that was to be the worlds most expensive when it was going to be sold by Christies then pulled - Audi bought the car, but sent it to England to be restored, we are the best at such work

Right as I type this at work I'm literally sat 10 ft away from a 3 million pound car that is a true wonder to behold , built originaly and then restored by the finest British craftsmen , no one does it like we do

[318isPMK]

Im probably a bit young for this but from what I understand industry in the UK kept wages low and kept workers near destitute for generations through nothing more than greed, so much so the legacy still continues to this day where even the minimum wage is not a viable living wage. The unions did what they thought was right but they were naive petty and dare i say quite corrupt. In the end they crippled industry then thatcher killed them off and consigned a generation or two to be handless wankrs like me. A shitey degree and couldnt wire a plug without an instruction booklet.

Who knows what the right answer was but this economy was the result of thatchers children inventing wealth with bull and excel formulas not making it... top gear proved one thing on Sunday we CAN make things but only if money is no object. Bloody eagle speedster! And 80k for a jag!!

I'll keep my turd thank you

[daimlerman]

Or could it just be that the British government taxed manufacturing industry to such a level that no cash was available for R and D?

[ravstar13]

Well apparently Thatcher did give a few billions quid in taxpayers cash over a few years in the form of a bailout. So that meant we payed for the bailout and then payed tax on the crap cars that made. I think we just didnt want to make good quality cars and thats not the workers thats the people at the top giving them the instructions. Its sad because We know we can make some good gear but just choose not to. I think the 'quality' is not in our DNA ....i think its more to do with 'value for money'....which later on turns to a scrapped motor.

But in your opinions what do you think the Kias and so on are doing ?? Im actually impressed....they seem to be getting and better and moving in the right direction....or do you reckon it will not last long??

[hennabm]

As has probably been said about the TG bit:

Most of the vehicles shown are indeed built in Britain but by foreign owned companies, so all profits leave the UK.