RWD Handling Question

[lewisdmz]

Imagine you are in a fwd car, mid corner and you lift off the throttle which induces oversteer, to regain control/reduce oversteer you just need to point the wheels in the right direction and keep your foot in the floor (essentially).

In a rwd car, you are again mid corner and lift off, same oversteer, except this time if you plant your foot it is just going to exaggerate the oversteer, how do you regain control?

[sparkyE30]

more opposite lock or less throttle

[maggspower]

Opposite lock

The idea is to not lose control in the first place: slow into the corner, power out. The fastest way is not sideways.

[daimlerman]

I had the pleasure of watching Stirling Moss 'four wheel drift' at Aintree in the British round of formula 1 in about 1958 or 1959,it's so long ago that when myself,dad and dad's workmate arrived at the track,the marshall made us wait until the pack had passed before letting us across the track to the infield!
Try that at the next British GP!

Never,ever, have I been able to balance throttle and steering like the master showed... not even on my Scalextric...

[Grrrmachine]

Curious: Mr Moss and my Grandfather were close mates; my Dad often recalls having Stirling over for sunday lunch back in the Sixties.

Off-topic, but a nice tale

[lewisdmz]

more opposite lock or less throttle

Wouldn't less throttle put more weight over the front wheels therefore reducing grip at the rear?

Yes always best to stay pointing more or less in the right direction but i'm just thinking when it goes wrong.

It seems there is no get out of jail free card like with fwd.

[Funnybear]

Mid corner lift in a RWD car is one of the fastest ways . . . . . . to the accident. It's actually one of the 'DO NOTS!' in RWD car driving. Obvioulsy, if your in control and your expecting the snap, then go ahead, lift all you want. But on the public road, with so many variables it's not something you want to make a habit of. Especially in a front engined Rwd car. Mid engined, less snap, more control and predictability. Porsche 911, Learn to love the rear view mirror, because thats the only way you'll know where your going.

The fizzix involved is fairly easy. Big mass at the front of the car, which whilst accelerating (throttle) moves weight to the rear giving you traction. If you lift off, then all that mass immediately shifts to the front wheels, leaving you nothing at the back, no engine, no mass, just running gear and body work. So if the lateral (sideways) momentum is sufficient to break what little grip you have on the back, it's all going to sideways very very quickly indeed. Thats whats called the snap. If you have the reactions of a hawk and/was expecting it, after all it's what you want in a drifter, then you might be able to dial in the opposite lock and feather the throttle to catch it. If you just bury the throttle, depending on car setup and amount of lock and in which direction you are either going to spin it quicker, or induce understeer which is unusual in a front engined car, but what makes mid engined cars much more manageable and the preferred option.

FWD and RWD cars handle very very differently and require very different driving approaches in fast driving. You pull up a youtube vid of some older touring car racing when you have a mixture of car formats and see how the FWD cars practically turn the corner before the appex and understeer out, whilst the RWD's point at the appex and oversteer out.

But please, if your on a public road, don't try hoofing it and seeing what happens when you lift off mid corner. It really, really doesn't end well.

[daimlerman]

But please, if you're on a public road, don't try hoofing it and seeing what happens when you lift off mid corner. It really, really doesn't end well.

In my case,it ended in a field of winter barley!


I was lucky,the farmer's daughter asked her dad to extract my E30....

[scjimbo]

But please, if you're on a public road, don't try hoofing it and seeing what happens when you lift off mid corner. It really, really doesn't end well.

In my case,it ended in a field of winter barley!


I was lucky,the farmer's daughter asked her dad to extract my E30....

sounds like a euphemism to me.

[macas]

And il also add that lifting off and breaking hard at speed in a straight line (especially in an e30)will make the back end step out aswell,which surprised me the first time it happened!!
Its a whole new kettle of fish in a rear wheel drive!!

[magpie]

kick it!

[scjimbo]

And il also add that lifting off and breaking hard at speed in a straight line (especially in an e30)will make the back end step out aswell,which surprised me the first time it happened!!
Its a whole new kettle of fish in a rear wheel drive!!

This man speaks with experience

[macas]

And il also add that lifting off and breaking hard at speed in a straight line (especially in an e30)will make the back end step out aswell,which surprised me the first time it happened!!
Its a whole new kettle of fish in a rear wheel drive!!

This man speaks with lack of experience

Edited for accuracy...

[daimlerman]

And il also add that lifting off and breaking hard at speed in a straight line (especially in an e30)will make the back end step out aswell,which surprised me the first time it happened!!
Its a whole new kettle of fish in a rear wheel drive!!

That reads like knackered rear bushes to me....

[macas]

And il also add that lifting off and breaking hard at speed in a straight line (especially in an e30)will make the back end step out aswell,which surprised me the first time it happened!!
Its a whole new kettle of fish in a rear wheel drive!!

That reads like knackered rear bushes to me....

Could it???

It has happened in two others i have driven aswell...

Well thats interesting....

[scjimbo]

And il also add that lifting off and breaking hard at speed in a straight line (especially in an e30)will make the back end step out aswell,which surprised me the first time it happened!!
Its a whole new kettle of fish in a rear wheel drive!!

Try this in an old rand lover defender. Absolutely terrifying. I've had them going up the road literally backwards.

[daimlerman]

But please, if you're on a public road, don't try hoofing it and seeing what happens when you lift off mid corner. It really, really doesn't end well.

In my case,it ended in a field of winter barley!


I was lucky,the farmer's daughter asked her dad to extract my E30....

sounds like a euphemism to me.

Not quite...

I was determined to find the limit of a 320i more door fitted with a 2.7 dyno'd at 178bhp,but with stock(read knackered)dampers and 14'' wheels with worn,cheap tyres.
I was lucky,I spun the car into a field without causing significant damage to car or property,and the first person on the scene was the farmer's daughter!
She 'phoned her dad,who pulled the car out without further damage to his crop,whilst laughing about 'dreamers in beemers and berks in mercs'...

[zaust]

Then learn from your mistakes. When the back steps out control it with throttle not lift.

[scjimbo]

In my case,it ended in a field of winter barley!


I was lucky,the farmer's daughter asked her dad to extract my E30....

sounds like a euphemism to me.

Not quite...

I was determined to find the limit of a 320i more door fitted with a 2.7 dyno'd at 178bhp,but with stock(read knackered)dampers and 14'' wheels with worn,cheap tyres.
I was lucky,I spun the car into a field without causing significant damage to car or property,and the first person on the scene was the farmer's daughter!
She 'phoned her dad,who pulled the car out without further damage to his crop,whilst laughing about 'dreamers in beemers and berks in mercs'...

But the question we all want to ask was a) was she fit and b) did your foray into her bushes end up in a foray into her bush?

[magpie]

changing down too early under braking is interesting

[daimlerman]

sounds like a euphemism to me.

Not quite...

I was determined to find the limit of a 320i more door fitted with a 2.7 dyno'd at 178bhp,but with stock(read knackered)dampers and 14'' wheels with worn,cheap tyres.
I was lucky,I spun the car into a field without causing significant damage to car or property,and the first person on the scene was the farmer's daughter!
She 'phoned her dad,who pulled the car out without further damage to his crop,whilst laughing about 'dreamers in beemers and berks in mercs'...

But the question we all want to ask was a) was she fit and b) did your foray into her bushes end up in a foray into her bush?

Yes she was,and no,I did not,her boyfiend/partner and dad were far bigger and fitter than me,I slipped her dad £10(I failed to find a fiver in my wallet)to remove my property from his property!

Some you win,most I lose....

[steve_k]

changing down too early under braking is so much fun

fixed for you

[DanThe]

changing down too early under braking is where heel/toe comes in

fixed for you

Fixed for you both

[steve_k]

changing down too early under braking is where heel/toe comes in

fixed for you

Fixed for you both

Good man

[lewisdmz]

Wow, this went off topic quickly.

Don't worry funnybear, it wasn't that was intending to be the next DK. Just purely wondering what to do when it gets out of shape. I don't even own an e30...yet, but I have a 306 gti which have a bit of a reputation (albeit not as much as the 205 gti) for lift off oversteer if you are silly.

[Funnybear]

Try this in an old rand lover defender. Absolutely terrifying. I've had them going up the road literally backwards. [/quote]

Funnily enough, I drive one for work, although a fairly newish (for a defender) 58 plate.

I've had it backwards into a hedge once, in the snow being a complete dick thinking I was in a rally car. We have the heavy chassis on our Landies and we carry alot of kit. It ain't no rally car.

I've had it in a ditch once. Hauling a generator which pushed me into what I thought was a grassy verge when I realised the track I'd turned into was a ploughed field. It wasn't a verge, it was a ditch. Whatever bastard thought putting ditches along side country roads was a good idea, is probably laughing his socks off. Recovery man pulled me out, I scraped out the mud from the wheels, of we went again.

I get her down to her axles on a regular basis. Don't drive across cultivated fields, don't do it with low tyre pressures, don't do it with mud terrains on, don't do it in the wet, don't do it in the dry. Just don't go on fields. I have too, but then we have big Unimogs to pull us out again when we eneviatable run out of momentum and three and half tons wants to sink.

But they are still one of the best off roaders you can get. Solid axles and big tyres get you most places. The new ones are trying to be too trick now with false locking diffs and TC. They also use the Puma engine out the transit which has a computer telling me it knows how to drive better than I can. So by default, I hate the bloody thing.

But still. I get to drive a whopping great 4x4 for work. I get paid to hoon about off road. Its great.

[mattrs]

Opposite lock :. The fastest way is not sideways.

It is in/on some machines, some corners and in some surfaces/conditions.

[DanThe]

Opposite lock :. The fastest way is not sideways.

It is in/on some machines, some corners and in some surfaces/conditions.

Like what?

[Funnybear]

Gravel. The Scandy flick. Get those rears pushing you through the corner and down the road . . . . .

Rather than understeering off a cliff . . . .


back OT for a sec . . . . . I do actually love that moment when your on the brakes and you can feel the rear just starting to drift out light as a feather and you get it going the right way, just the right amount for the corner entry so you ever so slightly sideways going into the corner. You come of the brake, balance it on the throttle and mash it as it points the right way for exit. That makes me feel very happy and gives me the false sense of security that I'm actually a good driver.

And then I get it horribly wrong.

[Grrrmachine]

Opposite lock :. The fastest way is not sideways.

It is in/on some machines, some corners and in some surfaces/conditions.

Like what?

Mario Kart

[mattrs]

Anything on the loose like rally, rally cross. Some riders on certain bends in Moto gp and super bikes to name but a few.

[Funnybear]

Oversteer is as much a tool in the belt of a racing driver as anything. Some slip is warrented in any given situation as you often need to get the car rotated before the corner actually 'ends'. With FWD cars, rear slip isn't so much of an issues as the rears are not the driven wheels. But with rear wheel drives you have to balance the slip angle with tyre wear and traction delivery. Over the course of a race the more you slip, whilst being possibly faster, the more your tyres wear out.

Everything is about balance between finding the quickest route around a course against the longevity and rule constraints you have in getting around that course. No point setting blindingly fast laps in the first quarter if your just going to get overhauled on the final lap.

[macas]

Oversteer is as much a tool in the belt of a racing driver as anything. Some slip is warrented in any given situation as you often need to get the car rotated before the corner actually 'ends'. With FWD cars, rear slip isn't so much of an issues as the rears are not the driven wheels. But with rear wheel drives you have to balance the slip angle with tyre wear and traction delivery. Over the course of a race the more you slip, whilst being possibly faster, the more your tyres wear out.

Everything is about balance between finding the quickest route around a course against the longevity and rule constraints you have in getting around that course. No point setting blindingly fast laps in the first quarter if your just going to get overhauled on the final lap.

A prime example is f1...yes you can bollock it throwing the car around like in qualifying but yr tyres wont last..

[magpie]

[DanThe]

This soon turned into a "im a heroic rally/racing/F1 driving expert/general all round super hero/mission to mars astronaut" thread

And here's me thinking the OP is on about driving his car on the road.. duh..