What do i do ?

[Duke137]

Just buy Pete's engine

[ajay]

The engine i sold had 1 ring fail and my mate said it happened when he floored the car one day, all was good until he floored it.
When tested only 1 ring was at fault no other issues, for 3 to fail is a bit too much to assume, my car had been unuesd for 3x as long as yours too. As others have said logic suggests it all stems and is probrably related to your recent engine work, proving it is another story!

[hennabm]

I'm with B7 on this - 3 cylinder suddenly suffering stuck rings - highly unlikely .

[polsta]

thanks guys appriciate the thoughts and im learning fast here

im going to see him today if i can, hes probably out working, ive got a few things i need to find out

he had a couple of the valves out, but not all of them, i will ask that

but- IF, if, its kissed the valves/head damage and he knows it ? why would he not point towards a head re build if he knew it would sort it ? he knows i desperatly want to keep the engine in there, hes an oem peado like me with his fords, he knows this

fact, it was running fine when on then taken off the road, and it was running ok when we 1st started it up, thats fact, no talk of a missfire or anything in that 1st heat cycle, i was right there watching as it ticked over, all pressured up ok, he was sayig happy with this, happy with that etc, watching for leaks and it all pressuring up and thermostat and fan doing its job etc, it was all fine then, so something has gone wrong at that point

if it was stuck rings- am i right in saying that would not have happened and they would be stuck before hand and it would not have started ?

1 question- any sort of ring damage/perishing/dissintergrating ? thats sort of what they were indicatng their thoughts when i was there yesterday, what would/could cause that ? and when/how would it happen and comne about ? ie when sat ? when started ? after it going through that 1st heat cycle ?

also guys, as in my thread-

when it had had some fresh fuel in it, and i went to start it, it would not start, but battery was low critical, i tried to jump it, left the truck running for a bit to power it up, someone pointed out fuse 12 , so i removed that, gave it a go, no joy, put back in and tried- no joy, fuse out- it seemed to get closer to starting just that final % wouldnt go in to motion, fuse in - no joy, fuse out (also battery power would of been building by now still being jumped with that running) and it then started after a few cranks, then obviously stopped due to the fuse out, then fuse in..after repeating a few times and it starting with fuse out, but not in, then starting again with fuse out, it then started with the fuse in, and ticked over ok/happily , the missfire was there but it ticked over and reved up gently ok, and again went through another heat cycle like that

would that have any bearing ? or what could that indicate ?

[pacerpete]

Fuel issues will not affect compression. Your next step is to get them to remove all six pistons and rods, obviously paying particular interest to the cylinders with low compression. I personally think the issue is head / valve timing related . Either way, you are now up for an engine rebuild as everything you remove / touch will be tired/ shagged

[polsta]

so is it not possible- that the bottom end is ok ? and its just a head issue ? i need to get clarification on exact whats wrong, if its bottom end, then engine swap time, and do it over time, unless its not mega ££ , or if its a head re build i can swallow that and in the light of it would be happy that the bottom end is ok and can get the show back on the road and at least have a re con head in it and original lump

[Speedtouch]

Could you not borrow another known good head and temporarily fit it (using the original head bolts, to save expense), then run a compression test again?

This would verify if it's the bottom end or the head at fault.

[gaszman]

i did mine myself full engine rebuild , only fooked about with fords before this . get a haynes or bentleys manual and do it its no biggie . p.s i have a tech 1 botton end and spare head here for mine just in case .

and the car ran sweet when i drove it so something has happend when they did the belt
this was mine started on the button too

[polsta]

Dave is that head complete and decent ready to fit fully working ? Ie just an option to what speed touch says above ?

Although Im still mulling over options and listening to thoughts here and have yet to confirm exactly what was done in the testing there , popped round earlier but he wasn't in, il try again on way to work

[pacerpete]

so is it not possible- that the bottom end is ok ? and its just a head issue ? i need to get clarification on exact whats wrong, if its bottom end, then engine swap time, and do it over time, unless its not mega ££ , or if its a head re build i can swallow that and in the light of it would be happy that the bottom end is ok and can get the show back on the road and at least have a re con head in it and original lump

It is entirely possible that the bottom end is OK , but there is a MAJOR issue somewhere if you only have 40 psi on three cylinders ! If it was head related it should be VERY obvious. According to your mate, there is nothing wrong with the head so that leaves only the bottom end.

For the sake of another couple of hours labour, it would be complete madness not to drop the sump and pull the pistons out.
I would be very suprised if any issues are found but it is good practise to clean all the pistons assemblies and rehone the bores in any case.

The joys of old scrap

[Speedtouch]

this was mine started on the button too

Sounds a bit rough to me!

[pacerpete]

this was mine started on the button too

Sounds a bit rough to me!

Toblerone cam FTW !

[polsta]

so is it not possible- that the bottom end is ok ? and its just a head issue ? i need to get clarification on exact whats wrong, if its bottom end, then engine swap time, and do it over time, unless its not mega ££ , or if its a head re build i can swallow that and in the light of it would be happy that the bottom end is ok and can get the show back on the road and at least have a re con head in it and original lump

It is entirely possible that the bottom end is OK , but there is a MAJOR issue somewhere if you only have 40 psi on three cylinders ! If it was head related it should be VERY obvious. According to your mate, there is nothing wrong with the head so that leaves only the bottom end.

For the sake of another couple of hours labour, it would be complete madness not to drop the sump and pull the pistons out.
I would be very suprised if any issues are found but it is good practise to clean all the pistons assemblies and rehone the bores in any case.

The joys of old scrap

i understand, so - if i did this, said i need a definitive answer whats wrong- pull the block out,sump off pistons out

i need some rough £ figures what im looking in the senarios-
so what then if -

A-there is nowt found ? and it looks ok ? what more expense ££ - is there to get it back together ? is it then new rings ? new pistons ? or just rehone/glaze and put back in ? or are things like the rings,cheap and best practice to replace ?

B- HKF, has said to me hes got some pistons that give 185bhp ,i have no idea how much £ hed want for them, if they were the case are you the talking re bore and stuff like that ? what sort of figures ?

C- some/the rings are causing issues, and or pistons, what then and likley ££ ?


i need some rough figures for them senarios

then of course its a head re build anyway, then put it all back together

[Andyboy]

so is it not possible- that the bottom end is ok ? and its just a head issue ? i need to get clarification on exact whats wrong, if its bottom end, then engine swap time, and do it over time, unless its not mega ££ , or if its a head re build i can swallow that and in the light of it would be happy that the bottom end is ok and can get the show back on the road and at least have a re con head in it and original lump

It is entirely possible that the bottom end is OK , but there is a MAJOR issue somewhere if you only have 40 psi on three cylinders ! If it was head related it should be VERY obvious. According to your mate, there is nothing wrong with the head so that leaves only the bottom end.

For the sake of another couple of hours labour, it would be complete madness not to drop the sump and pull the pistons out.
I would be very suprised if any issues are found but it is good practise to clean all the pistons assemblies and rehone the bores in any case.

The joys of old scrap

This is where we differ in opinion! I would examine the bores on the affected 3 cyls and if they look the same as the others, sort the cylinder head and refit it. It's a risk, but worth it. Taking the sump off a 325i is a pain in the rectum and at this stage, you might as well just pull the engine out.

So:

1.) Refit the head, get the cam timing and valve clearances set and see how it goes. With a bit of a caning it might sort itself out as a stuck top compression ring frees itself from a hot, expanded piston.

2.) Replace the engine with a known good unit and rebuild yours at your convenience - maybe even make it into a 2.7 or 2.8 retaining the original block.

In my opinion, anything in between is a waste of time. For the £300 Pete wants for an engine, you won't really be able to fix yours if it does need work. Foe the sake of a gasket and a set of head bolts, I would reassemble the original and see how it goes over a couple of days.

Years ago, I was booked to fit a pair of new calipers to an Alfasud Ti that had been maintained by a known Bristol based Alfa expert. Turns out it didn't need calipers after all, the expert just didn't knoew that on some, the adjusters work anti clockwise. I drove this thing up the road to test the newly adjusted brakes, and it was so fucking slow. The gearbox rattle (the expert said it needed a rebuild) was because it ran on about 3 1/2 cylinders. A compression test revealed 160 psi on two cylinders, 90 psi on another and about 30 on the last. I set to, found the cam timing out by a tooth on one bank, put that right and 160 psi was restored on all four. And, no gearbox rattle

So, don't go despairing and chucking $$$ at it just yet.

[polsta]

thanks andy, theres a bit to think about here, ive spoke to HKF, am awiting a reply back on a few things he says, and see if hes up for it

as you say above there-

So:

1.) Refit the head, get the cam timing and valve clearances set and see how it goes. With a bit of a caning it might sort itself out as a stuck top compression ring frees itself from a hot, expanded piston.

you won't really be able to fix yours if it does need work. Foe the sake of a gasket and a set of head bolts, I would reassemble the original and see how it goes over a couple of days.

So, don't go despairing and chucking $$$ at it just yet.

if, we did that- does the head need a "re build" as such ? it would need new valve stem seals and valves re seated ? but then- your talking putting it all back together, fluids etc- basicly re building the car back up your saying ? then driving ? but then if still no good, im back to square 1, and dont forget ive still go to get all that done

then if it all has to come back out,im fooked more ££££

or do you mean just do a compression test on it with the head on ?

but my mate did say that initialy friday morning when i left there that was sort of the plan, he said for the sake of a gasket and a bit of a head refurb, wel do that and take the gamble, but then after pricing up the valve stem seals and whatever else needed,and the head tested and skimmed or whatever at a head place, he said its going to be 600 odd in to get to that point ? - im 150 in at the moment so 450 odd ? sounded a lot , how much would you expect it should be ? /what parts would be needed and cost?

although, if HKF is up for it, and can do it and has the time, il see what he has to say, as it could be an option to just get it home to my garage and him to do it from there maybe if thats possible, although i dont have things like an engine crane or lots of space and ideally not drag on for a long time

[pacerpete]

The problem Carl has is that the geyser doing the job has said the head has no issues ! This means either there are bottom end woes, the geyser is blind OR he has covered his tracks to hide evidence of the valve timing issue that has bent misc valves........

Personally I have my doubts about the people doing the job. I really would not feel comfortable throwing lots of money at somebody who suggests refitting the head on the untouched bottom end even though they have found no issues with the same head ! How are them 40 psi cylinders going to fix themselves ?

The only GUARANTEED solution that will give you a good running car is to buy my engine . Send me your new water pump and bits and I will fit them, then all the Ford types need to do is fit the engine

[polsta]

The problem Carl has is that the geyser doing the job has said the head has no issues ! This means either there are bottom end woes, the geyser is blind OR he has covered his tracks to hide evidence of the valve timing issue that has bent misc valves........

hes not said it has no issues, he said he cant see any, showed me the valve seats etc, and it should have a presssure test and inspection at the cylinder company, if he was covering any tracks to do with top end issues like bent valves, he definatly wouldnt point to the bottom end/engine change, if he fully knew a head re build would fix it, hed say look you need some head work this that n that and that fixes the car, he knows i want to keep the engine if possible and resonably

dont forget here, in my other thread, he mentioned rings, before it even went there after the initial start up and missfire and not being able to solve it

[Speedtouch]

had a compression test- 1,3,4, were in the 40s psi, the rest in the 170s, they suspected some sort of piston/rings issue was mates gut feeling

so its currently at his garage- the heads been removed, no visible cracks or anything

Did you examine the headgasket? The two middle pots might be down on compression due to the gasket failing between them, a common problem on A-series engines.

[HairyScreech]

I don't like this one bit, something seems wrong.

Going from the start.
- the car was laid up for what a couple of months? I personally have seen engines laid up for years with out ever having ring issues, just doesn't seem plausible without something to aggravate the situation like the plugs being left out.

- 3 cylinders with stuck rings? 3! Really don't like the idea of that.

- 40 psi? that's low, that's seriously low. A good lump should manage that on the first stroke, I wouldn't be surprised if just the piston in the hole would produce that result with no rings at all.
To get as low as that all the rings on all 3 cylinders would have to be stuck to totally in.
How plausible does 3x3 stuck rings sound? 9 rings stuck in a few months?

- You ran the thing up and found a missfire right? was it smoking like a trooper? if the rings were this bad it would be oiling up the bores and smoking like the Marlborough man. The plugs will tell you a lot here.

- If it was stuck rings then it would have been sitting with something in the cylinders for the time this thread has been running no? something like MMO/wd40/diesel etc?
and by now you would be looking at just popping the head on with the old bolts and gasket just to give it a spin and check the compression right?

[hennabm]

I'm with Hairy, this just doesn't seem right. The story doesn't ring true and to have such low compression again Hairy is right on the plausibility of the 3 cylinders having stuck rings.

I would have the valves checked for straightness first. The seats aren't going to be the problem with such low psi.
If the valves are straight I would then suspect the head for a crack or the HG gasket blown and then finally the valve seats.

M20 bottom ends don't normally give much trouble and or usually good for 150k+. It would be the last part of the engine I suspected on an M20 without the side effects as described by Hairy and others.

[HairyScreech]

Ok, here's something to try. IF there is that much room between the piston and the bore to lose that much compression then more than just air will get by right?

As the head is off there is no way to do a leak down.
So, put a measured amount of normal engine oil in the bores of 1 and 6.
1 should be leaking and 6 should be fine.
So, 1 should lose this oil a lot quicker than 6, you can try moving the pistons up and down a little as well with a spanner on the crank.

If the leaking cylinders are not empty significantly before the supposed good ones then your compression is unlikely to have been going past the pistons.

And remember to empty the oil out of the cylinders afterwards.

[iDreamBeemer]

Carl, if you do decide to take it to somewhere else, I can recommend http://www.iridiumengineering.co.uk/ I've found Sean to be a solid guy who knows his stuff and loves E30s! Not sure how easy it'll be to get the car there if the engine is in bits but it is another option.

[magpie]

Ok, here's something to try. IF there is that much room between the piston and the bore to lose that much compression then more than just air will get by right?

As the head is off there is no way to do a leak down.
So, put a measured amount of normal engine oil in the bores of 1 and 6.
1 should be leaking and 6 should be fine.
So, 1 should lose this oil a lot quicker than 6, you can try moving the pistons up and down a little as well with a spanner on the crank.

If the leaking cylinders are not empty significantly before the supposed good ones then your compression is unlikely to have been going past the pistons.

And remember to empty the oil out of the cylinders afterwards.

neat

[griffith500user]

Hi Karl, sorry to read about your latest problems, but also wanted to say what a fantastic job you are making of the body and the complete rebuild.

I wanted to add the fact that when I changed the Cambelt during my ownership, I found that the Cambelt was fitted one tooth out ( the valve timing was retarded). When I fitted the new one, I timed it as it should be and subsequently the performance was significantly better. However, since I had done approximately 500 miles in it before I carried out a lot of the mechanical work, the car started and performed fine, it was only when it was timed properly that it was noticeable that it performed better.

I haven't read all your threads, but I have picked up on the fact that you have had fuelling issues. It has been known for bores to become 'washed' with fuel when an engine is cranked for extended periods without actually starting. This bore washing allows the piston rings to lose their ability to seal and therefore compression is lost or vastly reduced. There could be nothing wrong with the top or bottom end, but now the head is off, I would suggest that someone at least removes the sump and un-bolts a big end cap to allow a 'low' compression piston and rod to be moved to check that rings are not seized. This way you will satisfy your own mind and may well save yourself a whole load of cash and grief!

Good luck, and I look forward to seeing the old gal fully restored and back on the road. Dom

[lyricalnut02]

++++++++++++1111111 to the above.

[Nobby_N]

What a fucking nightmare, Feel your pain matey! Keep your chin up!

[polsta]

Dom nice to hear from you !!

Very interesting , if you go back in this thread , how long would extended periods be to do the bore washing ? I did have a problem getting it started last week , if you look for the bit where the fuse 12 in and out I was cranking/jumping it a bit , not sure if it was extended periods or not ? But eventually got it started, from reading that depending what you mean by extended periods it sounds like that's possible ? Although there was the missfire before but no idea if the low compression then or not

If that's the case , I somehow need to confirm that, but a head re build is worthwhile still isn't it

Also Dom, the cambelt you did and water pump, both looked decent when they came off it probably didnt need doing as such but every 2 years or whatever the guide is regardless of miles so I did it

[polsta]

Ok, here's something to try. IF there is that much room between the piston and the bore to lose that much compression then more than just air will get by right?

As the head is off there is no way to do a leak down.
So, put a measured amount of normal engine oil in the bores of 1 and 6.
1 should be leaking and 6 should be fine.
So, 1 should lose this oil a lot quicker than 6, you can try moving the pistons up and down a little as well with a spanner on the crank.

If the leaking cylinders are not empty significantly before the supposed good ones then your compression is unlikely to have been going past the pistons.

And remember to empty the oil out of the cylinders afterwards.

neat

Excellent thanks !!! Sounds like a great plan , il get this carried out on Monday !!!!

How does this line up with what has just been posted there about the washed bores ? Would it still be ok to do this test ?

Feels like a bit if progress and direction here, thanks to all keep it comming !!

[griffith500user]

You could try this and it may work, however engine oil is quite viscous at room temp so I wouldn't expect much to seep past a full set of piston rings. Worth trying though, may be a winner. Pushing a piston and rod up through the block with the sump off for access would be my easy way forward though. I did this with a race engine recently whilst still in the car, saved me a whole load of time.

[polsta]

Thanks Dom, check your pm inbox !

If you did that pushing the piston up, and out do you mean ? What happens then/after ?

If you take pistons out, do you then have to replace things before refitting ?

[ross_jsy]

Thing is even if the bores are scrubbed from fuel I can't see the compression being down to 40, that's incredibly low.

Might well be wrong, just doesn't seem like it would be the case.

[Speedtouch]

Thanks Dom, check your pm inbox !

If you did that pushing the piston up, and out do you mean ? What happens then/after ?

If you take pistons out, do you then have to replace things before refitting ?

Just buy or borrow a piston ring compressor - a sort of large Jubilee clip that is tightened around the rings - to refit the pistons.

[polsta]

Ok I see, so you can just remove the pistons and rings and if all ok just re fit ?

How much roughly would a set of rings cost ? If it was a case of remove sump,pistons and rings out , and just te fit and replace with new rings and a glaze is it ? What sort if labour time is involved in that as a job ?

(Sorry for the questions but I have no idea about this sort if thing so trying to gushes senarios and rough costs of things )

[B7]

Thing is even if the bores are scrubbed from fuel I can't see the compression being down to 40, that's incredibly low.

Might well be wrong, just doesn't seem like it would be the case.

THIS

Bore wash will only cause issues over time and then not 40psi

This ran fine before the belt was fitted.



With all due respect Carl, asking questions about what and how you deal with a piston once it's out says you are well out of your depth on this.

Also the fact you are asking so many questions says you are not trusting your mate the mechanic.

You need to either run with him or listen to us and get the damn thing away from him and let someone who knows m20s see the car.

Or buy Petes engine. It's not like you can't rebuild the correct lump in your own time, learning along the way at your own pace. Looked after, Petes engine will still be worth 300 notes if not more when the original goes back in.

[TPS]

Thing is even if the bores are scrubbed from fuel I can't see the compression being down to 40, that's incredibly low.

Might well be wrong, just doesn't seem like it would be the case.

THIS

Bore wash will only cause issues over time and then not 40psi

This ran fine before the belt was fitted.



With all due respect Carl, asking questions about what and how you deal with a piston once it's out says you are well out of your depth on this.

Also the fact you are asking so many questions says you are not trusting your mate the mechanic.

You need to either run with him or listen to us and get the damn thing away from him and let someone who knows m20s see the car.

Or buy Petes engine. It's not like you can't rebuild the correct lump in your own time, learning along the way at your own pace. Looked after, Petes engine will still be worth 300 notes if not more when the original goes back in.

I totally agree, certainly no expert on this, but 40 psi? Theres something majorly wrong, my M42 was 180 on all 4 four cylinders, & that has issues! As Trevor says get it to someone who knows the engine! But I think unfortunately, you will have to bite the bullet, & speak to Pete about buying his engine.