E30 M3 vs E28 M5 - Help me choose

[whipsey]

i've got an e28 and would love an m5 version of it mt all the way

[royale30]

Can I ask a silly question: are all e30 m3 left hand drive or something?? excuse my noob-ness!

Anyhows baring that I'd go for the e30 m3 as smaller and lighter rules in a drivers car IMO, much more usable on the limit than a big heavy beast. Not to say there's anything wrong with the M5 as its obviously an awesome car but IMO nimbleness and drivability are more important.

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Yes E30 M3s are lhd as standard. Some companies did some conversions. Someone will come along now and say the rhd conversion ruined the car. Obviously they have had lots of wtcc experience to back up their claims.

As for choosing, depends on what the car will be used for. Depends on running costs and availability of parts. E28 is just sooo cool. They are trackable. Jamie has tracked one and it is fine. Can be a real hooligan weapon in the right hands.

E30 M3 is iconic and more popular. It's whole purpose was as a racing car.

I'd take either but think the E28 edges it in the coolness stakes.

[jam172]

Yes E30 M3s are lhd as standard. Some companies did some conversions. Someone will come along now and say the rhd conversion ruined the car. Obviously they have had lots of wtcc experience to back up their claims.

As for choosing, depends on what the car will be used for. Depends on running costs and availability of parts. E28 is just sooo cool. They are trackable. Jamie has tracked one and it is fine. Can be a real hooligan weapon in the right hands.

E30 M3 is iconic and more popular. It's whole purpose was as a racing car.

I'd take either but think the E28 edges it in the coolness stakes.

Alright Nathan? You mean this one?



???

First of all 187 cars( to be perdantic )were made in RHD, mine is Nr 172 and cosmetically has seen better days, i have owned it for 6 years and had a lot of fun out of it, now track use only. In my opinion both cars are extemely quick and without doubt an E30 M3 is quicker point to point, after all they are touring car bred, whereas the E28 M5 shares the same Chassis as an E28 518i. With 286 BHP brute force.

That said i have never driven the E30 M3, so cannot draw a fair comparison anyway. All i know is that i have stopped using my M5 on the road because it brings out the absolute worst in me.

My buying advice would be get one without the body kit, one that has had the timing chain replaced, as for being affordable every day, they are not; buy the best you can afford(6-7K max will buy a very tidy one with history), there is no such thing as an E28 M5 bargain, believe me.

[hubble]

M5

[jam172]

Can I ask a silly question: are all e30 m3 left hand drive or something?? excuse my noob-ness!

Anyhows baring that I'd go for the e30 m3 as smaller and lighter rules in a drivers car IMO, much more usable on the limit than a big heavy beast. Not to say there's anything wrong with the M5 as its obviously an awesome car but IMO nimbleness and drivability are more important.

Hmm this coming from someone who seems not able to handle a 318is, judging by you recent close encounter with a telegraph pole

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Can I ask a silly question: are all e30 m3 left hand drive or something?? excuse my noob-ness!

Anyhows baring that I'd go for the e30 m3 as smaller and lighter rules in a drivers car IMO, much more usable on the limit than a big heavy beast. Not to say there's anything wrong with the M5 as its obviously an awesome car but IMO nimbleness and drivability are more important.

Hmm this coming from someone who seems not able to handle a 318is, judging by you recent close encounter with a telegraph pole

pwn3d

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Yes E30 M3s are lhd as standard. Some companies did some conversions. Someone will come along now and say the rhd conversion ruined the car. Obviously they have had lots of wtcc experience to back up their claims.

As for choosing, depends on what the car will be used for. Depends on running costs and availability of parts. E28 is just sooo cool. They are trackable. Jamie has tracked one and it is fine. Can be a real hooligan weapon in the right hands.

E30 M3 is iconic and more popular. It's whole purpose was as a racing car.

I'd take either but think the E28 edges it in the coolness stakes.

Alright Nathan? You mean this one?



???

First of all 187 cars( to be perdantic )were made in RHD, mine is Nr 172 and cosmetically has seen better days, i have owned it for 6 years and had a lot of fun out of it, now track use only. In my opinion both cars are extemely quick and without doubt an E30 M3 is quicker point to point, after all they are touring car bred, whereas the E28 M5 shares the same Chassis as an E28 518i. With 286 BHP brute force.

That said i have never driven the E30 M3, so cannot draw a fair comparison anyway. All i know is that i have stopped using my M5 on the road because it brings out the absolute worst in me.

My buying advice would be get one without the body kit, one that has had the timing chain replaced, as for being affordable every day, they are not; buy the best you can afford(6-7K max will buy a very tidy one with history), there is no such thing as an E28 M5 bargain, believe me.

Hello Jamie, yeah, that's the bad boy!!!

All well with you?

[jam172]

All very well with me thanks, no more trackdays for me until next year now, the pockets are empty

At last i have an E30 again, nowt special, but an E30 none the less

[hubble]

Yes E30 M3s are lhd as standard. Some companies did some conversions. Someone will come along now and say the rhd conversion ruined the car. Obviously they have had lots of wtcc experience to back up their claims.

As for choosing, depends on what the car will be used for. Depends on running costs and availability of parts. E28 is just sooo cool. They are trackable. Jamie has tracked one and it is fine. Can be a real hooligan weapon in the right hands.

E30 M3 is iconic and more popular. It's whole purpose was as a racing car.

I'd take either but think the E28 edges it in the coolness stakes.

Alright Nathan? You mean this one?



???

First of all 187 cars( to be perdantic )were made in RHD, mine is Nr 172 and cosmetically has seen better days, i have owned it for 6 years and had a lot of fun out of it, now track use only. In my opinion both cars are extemely quick and without doubt an E30 M3 is quicker point to point, after all they are touring car bred, whereas the E28 M5 shares the same Chassis as an E28 518i. With 286 BHP brute force.

That said i have never driven the E30 M3, so cannot draw a fair comparison anyway. All i know is that i have stopped using my M5 on the road because it brings out the absolute worst in me.

My buying advice would be get one without the body kit, one that has had the timing chain replaced, as for being affordable every day, they are not; buy the best you can afford(6-7K max will buy a very tidy one with history), there is no such thing as an E28 M5 bargain, believe me.

Jam that is one special car

[jam172]

Thanks Mate, an honest response is, it was once, now has 187k on her an gets ragged around the track, the plush electric black leather sports interior is in the shed replaced with a pair of Corbeau 80's bucket seats with 4 point harnesses, these make it quicker around the track than any other single adaption, there is so much more feedback and less over correction due to the "Pilot" staying in one place . It does suffer badly from understeer, you have to adapt you driving technique, or you can ruin a set of Toyos in 2hrs All that weight is sill trying to go sideways.

[daimlerman]

With regard to the M3 LHD thing,I seem to remember that BMW claimed at the time that a RHD version would lose performance compaired to the LHD.This was due to the exhaust manifold and steering shaft clearance issues.There is no doubt in my mind that an M3 is a great track car,my concerns centre around fast road use and overtaking in particular.For road use therefore,the M5 wins all the way.Steering may not be as sharp,single row timing chain needs regular,expensive,care but if you can live with those minor snags.....

[jam172]

but if you can live with those minor snags.....[/quote]

Hi Damilar man,

That minor timing chain snag that you mention will set you back a grand in parts alone The previous owner of my M5 did not have the chain done and whilst he still owned it at 108000 miles it snapped and lunched the whole top end, he got a bill back in 1993 for £4500

If you really have to buy an e28 M5 i would say that you are better off with one that has done 120K with chain done than say 90K and no chain replacement. Or you could do yourself a massive favour and opt for an E28 B10 Alpina instead, it's still got close to 270BHP and SOHC, much more sensible idea.

Mine is getting close to needing another chain, i have put the later type tensioner in as a precaution. The Strange thing is the chain on these usually snap on start up, the chain whips before the oil filled tensioner is able to get it's act together, usual cause is worn guides and pullies.

[liquid079]

I'd take the E28... The ultimate sleeper!

[playo]

E30 M3....but i would say that

As for the LHD issue, I had the same feelings beofre i got 1 (day2day drivability etc..) and i can honestly say, it's not a problem!
I use mine almost on a daily bassis, in town etc.. and i find it no different to being on the right. Ok for over taking, if you are too close to the car in front you wont be able to see (but i wouldn't try overtaking in rhd).
Parking I find easier (somehow?)
I find it to be quite useable.

[maxfield]

E30 M3, well for me all day long!

E28 M5 is a proper car! It's also very gangster!

Test drive both see which you prefer...

[Andyboy]

I would rather have an Alpina B9 or B10 myself - more than enough grunt for an E28 plus they're cheaper. Consider also an M535i. £2500 will buy a very clean one - spend £1000 on anti roll bars, gasflowed head and a spiky cam and it'll be pretty savage.

Bollocks to 10 grand for an E28. I'd want an absolutely perfect Avus blue 3.8 E34 for that - and change.

[jam172]

I don't understand where this £10k price comes from, you'll only pay that at Munich legends As i say you will get a very tidy E28 M5 for 3K less than that. The problems will start when you try to maintain it

[Bob_S]

couldnt possibly comment on an e28 of any sorts so I wont say get this get that what I will say is that having an e30 M3 it is a different class to any other e30 it feels more planted stops better and goes better argue if you will but I find the e30 M3 a VERY forgiving car to drive with great weight distribution the small changes BMW M made did transform the car so definately worth a punt if your thinking of looking at one.

However if you need to carry more than a breifcase to work you'll be fucked. the boot aperture is shite and it's a 2dr so no moving house for you!
It does depend on what use you intend for it if it's day to day go for the e28 if it's a sunday car e30 M3. Quite fancy an e12 m535i their cheap now...

[maxfield]

Just read the Evo magazine...

E30 M3 comes on top surely that tells all?

[jam172]

I find the e30 M3 a VERY forgiving car to drive with great weight distribution the small changes BMW M made did transform the car so definately worth a punt if your thinking of looking at one.

As i said i have never driven the E30 M3, but if the above is accurate, which i have no doubt of, let me reassure you that the E28 M5 is not at all forgiving, it will bite you badly if you get it wrong If it rains, the safest thing to do is leave it at home

[Fushion_Julz]

I'm with Playo on the LHD thing...I've had several LHD cars and it doesn't detract at all...In fact, it tends to make you a better driver, staying back to overtake so you can see...

The RHD M3 conversions typically use a 325 steering rack and brake set-up with remote servo...This makes them less feeling than a LHD one...If they keep the steering rack, then they have to use a 325 manifold/exhaust and tat WILL affect the power and responsiveness...Of course, if money was no issue, you could have a custom header made!!

And what Jamie said about the timing chain/tensioner issue on the E28 M5 is true...needs to be changed every 35,000 miles or so, like a belt would...Only at 10 times the cost!!

[jam172]

No not true, BMW never admitted that there was a set interval, the general rule of thumb is every 100K, that said a friend of mine has one with just shy of 200k on the clock, the oil has been changed more often than a chip fryer over it's life and it is on it's original chain, as i say it is the guides that get chewed up, mainly due to too longer service oil intervals. That said every time i see him, i am sure i can hear tick tick tick.....waitng for the bang

[Fushion_Julz]

lol...

Seems accepted wisdom is/was to change M88 chains every 35K miles...But perhaps that was the racing crowd from the time when E28s, and E24s were seen in the BMW championship...

I know around a track that a 300+ bhp E28 M5 with all the right suspension bits isn't any quicker than a 195bhp M10 engined 2002 with some of the right bits...
(I used to race an 02 and another chap had an M5)...

Optimum car around a track, then (10-12yrs ago) was an E30 M3 with group A suspension/brakes and 250bhp....Probably still is, in the right hands...

[maxfield]

Optimum car around a track, then (10-12yrs ago) was an E30 M3 with group A suspension/brakes and 250bhp....Probably still is, in the right hands...

270hp, a few suspension mods and 4 pot calipers and it will keep up with great cars on the track! With a not so experienced driver.

Wait until some R888's go on there

[toby]

Well, I must say I'm disappointed in most of you. This is an E30 site and everyone so easily gives way on the ultimate E30 - the M3 to the heavy, old, thirsty M5!

I love the torque, so I'd go for the M5 too!

I had an E28 528i before - and I found it a pain in the arse compared to an E30 though. Too big and heavy to turn around quickly. The M5 must be a different beast to a certain extent. Too many fiddly bits to work on but, as has been pointed out to me, this makes them more solid and better built than the E30.

I've not driven either E30 M3 or E28 M5 unfortunately. Surely you've gotta have a go of each before you splash the cash?

[Fushion_Julz]

Optimum car around a track, then (10-12yrs ago) was an E30 M3 with group A suspension/brakes and 250bhp....Probably still is, in the right hands...

270hp, a few suspension mods and 4 pot calipers and it will keep up with great cars on the track! With a not so experienced driver.

Wait until some R888's go on there

Which M3 or M5?

M5 as standard has 286bhp, allegedly...

Most of the E30 M3s in the BMW championship don't run much more than 250-260bhp...Obviously, a few may do, now, but back then just after they finished running in the BTCC/DTM, anything in the 300bhp territory was stupid money and touring car spec engines didn't last that long...

Of course, these days it is possible to get 260bhp fairly easily and without expending vast amounts of loot...Then again, my 195bhp M10 motor on carbs wouldn't be so hard to improve on, either...

[playo]

Julz-I think Maxfield is talking about his dads M3

[maxfield]

Correct.

260hp isn't expensive

[e30bmlover]

Julz-I think Maxfield is talking about his dads M3(again)

[Chris-W]

Whichever you find in good condition first

[royale30]

Can I ask a silly question: are all e30 m3 left hand drive or something?? excuse my noob-ness!

Anyhows baring that I'd go for the e30 m3 as smaller and lighter rules in a drivers car IMO, much more usable on the limit than a big heavy beast. Not to say there's anything wrong with the M5 as its obviously an awesome car but IMO nimbleness and drivability are more important.

Hmm this coming from someone who seems not able to handle a 318is, judging by you recent close encounter with a telegraph pole

No can't handle my 550 brake Rx7 any better either but I enjoy it. The 318is brought out the hooligan in me until I pushed it to far.

My point is that too many people think a bigger more imposing, large bhp, and almost always heavier car is better than a small nimble car with less horse power. I don't mean people here, just the population in general, hence all the new cars at the moment are massive with huge bhp. Before my Rex I had a 400bhp nissan 300zxTT which although handled well it was a whale of a thing compared to the Rex or the 318is. The 318is was a huge eye opener for me. I never would have thought I could have so much fun in something that only had 140 bhp.

Excuse the tangent to the thread.

[Simon13]

The 318is was a huge eye opener for me. I never would have thought I could have so much fun in something that only had 140 bhp.

Excuse the tangent to the thread.

Welcome to the world of bmw then where driver involvement, engines and chassis engineering come first and foremost. BMW are good at making big cars shrink around you and feel lightish and nimble for what they are. The current 7 series will piss on the mercs,audi's of the same size on the twistys.

The older chariots us losers fester about with are the most undiluted of this philosphy (sp). Not electronic aids to get you out of the sh!t when the back slides and the brickwall/tree/lampost is coming for you. It takes some good driving skills to drive an old beemer fast, they are very forgiving cars on the limit, and very rewarding when you get the corner/drift or whatever your doing right.

sorry off topic!

[Chris-W]

Well said Mr. 13!

[royale30]

Yes, well said and from what I've seen so far very true. I had an e34 325 tourer that I used as a tow car last year and for the size of it that was incredibly impressive. The e30 is even more of the same. Very impressive design and engineering

One thing I'm not so sure of though is the forgiving bit! I found the e34 more forgiving in that it would usually understeer first and you could easily make it oversteer, but the e30 are whippy little buggers. I like it for learning to drift in because my Rx7 has very similar characteristics (*10 ) but I'm not so sure you could call it forgiving lol. I tried drifting an e36 325 the other day and it was quite similar to the e34 in that it understeered first and you had to really dial in the oversteer. I didn't like it as much as the e30 but that would be a little more forgiving on the road I'd imagine.