The most Powerful 2.5

[6potWil6pot]

Not "too" expensive i guess But still...

[Davenotouring]

Not "too" expensive i guess But still...

It is expensive when you consider that for the same cost of the upgrade alone you could buy a good whole car which is much quicker in the first place!

[6potWil6pot]

Yes Dave I didnt want to offend the 4 cyl die hards tho, but now youve gone out and said it...

[M5pilot]

Sal im at Brunel Uni, and do you know where birds is?

Anyway ive been in to see them with a whole load of cash for the Hartge H3 conversion on my M42. 'Yes' i said 'dont care, have the money i want it done'. 'Okay' sir says one of the guys, let me email Germany for the parts.




NUFF-SAID

Are you being serious? What happens if it doesnt make 160bhp? I know!........you'll cry!

[Demlotcrew]

Dude they dont have the parts anymore. This is why i cry

[M5pilot]

There must be other places you can go to get that sort of money.

Want me to do some research?

[Jhonno]

tuning the m42.. if it responds to a chip and bbtb maybe tb's and emerald.. i know its good for an extra 40bhp on Vauxhalls 2.0 16v..

[M5pilot]

Heres a bit of news!

C2 2.7 with brand new built engine and 284/272 cam + BBTB + Stand Alone management. No 6 branch fitted and exhaust is shagged.

Today made 200bhp and 190 lb.ft torque

The owner is far from happy.

Maybe its not that easy to get 200bhp from an m20!

or it could just be the rollers because on the road this car anhialates everything and keeps up with my M5 upto 100 mph (on test track only).

Cheapest way to get power gains?......go to the forced induction area.

[Jhonno]

exhaust can make a big difference..

plus is it mapped properly?

[M5pilot]

I think its the exhaust aswell. It did make the majic 210bhp before without the 6 branch etc. Since then the exhaust has deteriorated. It was only put on to get the car running, its some cheapo ccopy pattern system.

Scorpion will be added asap.

Mapping is not very good at the moment either, too many flat spots.

[Simon13]

Well there u go, there's some reasons already!

[Moofles]

haha but still, struggling for 200hp from 2.5l when a (standard) m50 has it already? and cheaper to do?

[Karan]

I think its the exhaust aswell. It did make the majic 210bhp before without the 6 branch etc. Since then the exhaust has deteriorated. It was only put on to get the car running, its some cheapo ccopy pattern system.

Scorpion will be added asap.

Mapping is not very good at the moment either, too many flat spots.

where was the car mapped and roaded?

its odd how no one can map an e30 m20, as most other cars i see in mags and hear about seem to be able to run these standalone systems without problem and produce very good figures.. i

[Moofles]

here is a quote someone talking about this thread (i can't reveal who but you know him!) said:

"don't bring a knife to a gun fight" (yeah he's quoting the untouchables, lol)

thing is, it seems about right to me...

[M5pilot]

Just spoke to Bexleys about the figures and they said they also noticed how it went a bit flat at top end after 5500 rpm. Also the car is still going through some upgrades and they didnt see the point in mapping the top end fully when they know there are more bits to be added.

The engine has only done 1200 miles since a complete rebuild. It could just be a case its still running in properly.

I will be mapped again once the 6 branch and new exhaust are fitted and they are confident it will break the 210bhp barrier easily.

That will be the "Final" remap this car gets.

Ignoring the figures for a minute, the car flies and makes my 325i feel really slow. Has the same sort of grunt as Karans car but the power delivery is very different. The induction noise is something else. Blew away an Audi S3 so easily today.

[M5pilot]

where was the car mapped and roaded?

its odd how no one can map an e30 m20, as most other cars i see in mags and hear about seem to be able to run these standalone systems without problem and produce very good figures.. i

Its nothing to do with stand alone systems. Basically you cannot extract more power from an engine than its maximum capability. No amount of management can change that. The engine cannot suck anymore air, adding the right amount of fuel will return maximum power and thats it.

It may just be the case that other cars are so badly mapped as standard that when stand alone is added it makes a huge difference.

M50 engines dont make anywhere near 200bhp stock! More like 180-185 bhp if your lucky. I wouldnt bother with the M50 conversion nor the 2.8 M52 conversion. If your going to do something like that its got to be the 3.0 or 3.2 lumps from the e36's. Or even better still the 3.2 from the E46 M3 with its claimed 343bhp.

[Jhonno]

how comes you wouldnt bother with the m50/m52 Sal? I thought Wils car could 'keep up' with Karan's 2.7..

[M5pilot]

I wouldnt bother simply because if your going to go through that much hassle you might aswell spend a bit more and get a much bigger result.

3.0/3.2 M3 engines cost maybe Ԛ£1000-Ԛ£1400 maximum over an m52. It would cost alot more than Ԛ£1000 to get an extra 100bhp out of a 2.8 M52 to get to M3 power. Infact youd need to supercharge to get that much more power and thats Ԛ£4000 ++

See my logic?

Wil's car feels as though its as fast as Karan's but thats just straight line acceleration from standstill. Karan's seriously has the upper hand on bottom end and midrange torque though making it alot more versatile.

M50's and M52's are a half way house and a waste of time in my opinion. if your going to do it then do it properly. if you can buy a car with an m50 conversion then thats a different story but im actually talking about going out there and doing the conversion itself.

[6potWil6pot]

I should probably RR mine before i sell it. Anyway its decatted and has a chip in it which probably give it a bit more power, im willling to say it gives about 200bhp . ( i dont count the exhaust and the airbox as "proper" power giving mods)

[Lordschleife]

Dude they dont have the parts anymore. This is why i cry

How easy would it be to drop this in?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 26675&rd=1

[M5pilot]

Not that hard at all.

I think you might have to buy a manifold from Hartge which would clear the steering column.

Youd also need the 3.25 diff from the M3 otherwise gearing would be way too short.

[Gwynleym10]

all this talk about getting a M20 to 200bhp, though i'd put a link to another thread... m10 207bhp nice. http://www.e30zone.co.uk/modules.php?na ... pic&t=5817

M10 parts are dirt cheap... My BRAND NEW cyclinder Ԛ£30....Valves for it Ԛ£5 including postage...(thats inlet and exhust by the way)

[Karan]

I wouldnt bother simply because if your going to go through that much hassle you might aswell spend a bit more and get a much bigger result.

3.0/3.2 M3 engines cost maybe Ԛ£1000-Ԛ£1400 maximum over an m52. It would cost alot more than Ԛ£1000 to get an extra 100bhp out of a 2.8 M52 to get to M3 power. Infact youd need to supercharge to get that much more power and thats Ԛ£4000 ++

See my logic?

Wil's car feels as though its as fast as Karan's but thats just straight line acceleration from standstill. Karan's seriously has the upper hand on bottom end and midrange torque though making it alot more versatile.

M50's and M52's are a half way house and a waste of time in my opinion. if your going to do it then do it properly. if you can buy a car with an m50 conversion then thats a different story but im actually talking about going out there and doing the conversion itself.

i think wil's car is pretty much there.....but it is lacking torque all over compared to the long throw 2.7 in mine... its just the engine design...
mine is a lot rougher car though and i think wil's would be more useable day to day with a lighter clutch etc.... its also a cheaper conversion rthsn mine... just the steering clearance prob really.... thing with mine is i never need to drop it down into 4th on the mway as there is no point as the acceleration is higher in 5th rather than dropping it into high revs in 4th and stressing the old girl....

they are completely different... and gtech sugests that mine is slightly quicker,,,, on the road thought there isnt much in it.... although saying that wil..... that day near eley estate when u pulled away at the lights and i was behind u.... i did have to lift a bit as i was right on ure bumper in 2nd gear....

if it was my money id prob just do the m52 to be honest... and not have all the probs of getting a decent 2.7 made and running

[M5pilot]

As I said before, if your going to fit an m52 you might aswell be cost effective from the begginning and fit a 3.0/3.2 lump.

[Karan]

As I said before, if your going to fit an m52 you might aswell be cost effective from the begginning and fit a 3.0/3.2 lump.

agreed this is very true! unless u can get a lump for around the 3-400 quid mark

[M20olly]

when refering to stand alone systems, is this a replacement ecu or an add on such as the dastek. I want to convert to maf at the moment what is the best way of doing it. cost being important but not if it means that the end result will not be good.

[Jhonno]

Unichip seems to work best.. and standalone is exactly as it says - standalone ie new ecu that needs to be programmed

[Moofles]

i'd agree you might as well go the whole hog and get an e36 m3 engine - but actually, what i'd do is not to bother in the first place

[M5pilot]

when refering to stand alone systems, is this a replacement ecu or an add on such as the dastek. I want to convert to maf at the moment what is the best way of doing it. cost being important but not if it means that the end result will not be good.

Stand Alone is far sauperior to a MAF conversion in terms of throttle response and driveability. The cost is only slightly more for the Stand Alone depending on where you go.
Wait for stand alone.

[astondg]

Well with my standalone and MAP sensor the throttle response is only very slightly better than than with the stock computer and AFM. So I don't think a standalone would be that much better than MAF.

Most of the cost of a standalone is the fitment. It could require a lot of rewiring, possibly new sensors, and then tuning (probably on a dyno).

I think my standalone was about AUD$1000 but fitted and tuned it cost over AUD$2000

And about the M52 VS 3 or 3.2 M3 engines I think it depends on what the car is for. I imagine the M3 engines would be a bit heavier (extra throttle bodies and other stuff)? So the might give more performance in a straight line but our cars like the corners too . Also I like to race on the dirt, 300+HP through 225 max width tyres on the dirt would be a bit of a handfull. The M52's power is probably about right.

Aston

[6potWil6pot]

they are completely different... and gtech sugests that mine is slightly quicker,,,, on the road thought there isnt much in it.... although saying that wil..... that day near eley estate when u pulled away at the lights and i was behind u.... i did have to lift a bit as i was right on ure bumper in 2nd gear....

No doubt yours is ultimately quicker Karan
Might be different if mine had some cams, a proper 6 branch and a unichip to top it off tho!


If you were actually going to do a multi valve conversion yourself the M52 would be the all round best choice no?
Altho i would vote for the ///M if it were my choice too

[M5pilot]

Stand Alone management on the car Im currently driving around makes a HUGE difference to throttle response. While driving its really noticable. You put you foot down, theres no delay it just responds. When not in gear the revs just fly up.

Depends who done the mapping to be honest as to how it feels.

The M engines are a totally different beast to the M52 B28 engine. The real difference in power only comes in at higher rpms. M52 makes peak power at only 5500rpm or similar and the M engine makes it at 7900rpm. Upto about 3000rpm theres probably not alot in it. Therefore the M engine wouldnt be a handful unless you had it revved up.

M engine every single time. The M52 even with Ԛ£1500 thrown at it would be lukcy to make 230bhp. M engine from the outset is going to make 300bhp, youve got much more revs to play with.

M engine only slightly heavier than the M20 - Ian332i's car handles superb.

[jmc330i]

If you were actually going to do a multi valve conversion yourself the M52 would be the all round best choice no?
Altho i would vote for the ///M if it were my choice too

I was actually going to do the 2.8 M52 conversion on mine, but I was on a quest for power so I went for the 3.0 S50
I got thinking that if I was going to do a conversion, why not go all the way.

I guess it also depends what the car is going to be used for and who will be driving it. Theres no point having 300bhp and the extra revs if your not going to use them. The 2.8 would probably be a happy compromise.

[astondg]

Stand Alone management on the car Im currently driving around makes a HUGE difference to throttle response. While driving its really noticable. You put you foot down, theres no delay it just responds. When not in gear the revs just fly up.

Depends who done the mapping to be honest as to how it feels.

The M engines are a totally different beast to the M52 B28 engine. The real difference in power only comes in at higher rpms. M52 makes peak power at only 5500rpm or similar and the M engine makes it at 7900rpm. Upto about 3000rpm theres probably not alot in it. Therefore the M engine wouldnt be a handful unless you had it revved up.

M engine every single time. The M52 even with Ԛ£1500 thrown at it would be lukcy to make 230bhp. M engine from the outset is going to make 300bhp, youve got much more revs to play with.

M engine only slightly heavier than the M20 - Ian332i's car handles superb.

Yeah I would definately love to have an M3 6 cylinder just not in an E30, or at least my E30 with the way I use it. When I am on the dirt I am racing so I am using a lot of revs (I want to go as fast as possible) so I think it would be a lot of work. The M engines make their power high up but with the VANOS and other things they still make good torque down low anyway.

I am sure an E30 with one of those engines can handle well, but not as well or as balanced as an E30 with less weight in the front. The front/rear weight distribution is 52/48 or something standard so the more weight in the front the more it moves away from 50/50. And just having that extra weight anywhere in the car affects handling to some degree, maybe only slightly like you said, but every bit of weight saving helps . BMW thought it was a good idea for the E30 M3.

For the E30 I would be going away from BMW engines unfortunately and if I had enough money I would put in a NA 2.5L V6 with around 190 to 200kW(fairly easily achieved with the Japanese engine I am thinking of). That would be enough power I think and it revs to 8500rpm, similar to the M engines. Also probably cheaper than an M3 engine conversion, and would sit back further in the engine bay to help the weight distribution.

Aston

[Turbo-Brown]

Only problem with V6 engines is that they can't be perfectly balanced, unlike inline 6 engines which can.

There might not be much in it, but having a perfectly balanced engine leaves more potential for power than having an unbalanced engine.