Just had a long thread going on in the M5board about uprated anti roll bars.
We have quite a clever automotive engineer on there called Darren who pointed out something about Anti roll bars.
Basically we all know that things like springs wear out over time. They lose their strength and the metal fatigues.
Exactly the same goes for Anti Roll bars. Looking at most cars I have seen them to be rusty and over time they will, just like springs, lose their strength.
So even replacing them with brand new ones would actually make a difference.
Anti Roll bars make a big big difference in the way a car handles and we have seen this from everyone who has tried the H&R ARB kit.
So guys - if you want to the car to be better round bends and carry more speed get some new or uprated ARB's because its very likley that your origional 15 year old ones are bloody well tired by now!
The H&R ones are front and rear adjustable so they can be made very very stiff if you like to experiment.
Ԛ£250 is alot cheaper than a set of springs and shocks.
Anti Roll Bars - important.
Moderator: martauto
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Karan
- Married to the E30 Zone
- Posts: 8004
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Cheshunt, Hertfordshire
can i just add how important they are if ure car is lowered especialy!!!
lowering alters the roll centre actually increasing roll in some cases so arbs are required to correct this
uprated arbs are a must in my opinion... so uprate them or get em welded up!!!
lowering alters the roll centre actually increasing roll in some cases so arbs are required to correct this
uprated arbs are a must in my opinion... so uprate them or get em welded up!!!
The anti-roll bar bushes on my car are worn out, at the back the anti-roll bar has almost come out of the mount on the left hand side. I beat it back in a bit with a hammer before I went to a skid pan day last weekend but I guess I will have to find a more permanent solution soon.
I haven't noticed any difference in handling though since they started to wear or since putting it back in properly. I had the rear sub frame bushes replaced recently, they were completely stuffed I think (so much that the trailing arm mounts were hitting on the floor and denting it over bumps & under acceleration) but now it doesn't feel much different to before. The first time I drove it after it was fixed it felt a bit better (not a huge difference but a bit) but after that I didn't really notice. I don't think I am very good at noticing minor differences, even on the track, I just drive it to how it responds I think so I might not notice a big difference with new ARB's. I wouldn't be good at setting up a race car.
I still might get some poly ARB bushes and some uprated ARB's, I haven't decided if I am keeping my car or not or if it will be my road car or race car.
Aston
I haven't noticed any difference in handling though since they started to wear or since putting it back in properly. I had the rear sub frame bushes replaced recently, they were completely stuffed I think (so much that the trailing arm mounts were hitting on the floor and denting it over bumps & under acceleration) but now it doesn't feel much different to before. The first time I drove it after it was fixed it felt a bit better (not a huge difference but a bit) but after that I didn't really notice. I don't think I am very good at noticing minor differences, even on the track, I just drive it to how it responds I think so I might not notice a big difference with new ARB's. I wouldn't be good at setting up a race car.
I still might get some poly ARB bushes and some uprated ARB's, I haven't decided if I am keeping my car or not or if it will be my road car or race car.
Aston
BMW E30 323i with some stuff
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
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TouringMatt
- E30 Zone Camper
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Not where i should be
How does welding them up work then?. so uprate them or get em welded up!!!
I thought about that one for a second but i think Karan meant weld them to the chassis rail, correct me if i'm wrongTouringMatt wrote:How does welding them up work then?. so uprate them or get em welded up!!!
Weld the ARBs to the chassis? May as well weld the dampers solid while you're there. 
And I really don't think renewing anti-roll bars is going to make anything like the difference you'd get by renewing springs+shocks, unless you simply don't have any ARBs at all. I suspect that any fatigue which occurs is primarily in the springs; fractures are far more common in springs than ARB.
And I really don't think renewing anti-roll bars is going to make anything like the difference you'd get by renewing springs+shocks, unless you simply don't have any ARBs at all. I suspect that any fatigue which occurs is primarily in the springs; fractures are far more common in springs than ARB.
ARB's fatigue - especially on cars that have been asked to take corners fairly hard.
Springs and shocks wear faster and most cars are on atleast their 2nd sets since being built.
Karan's welding comments was to weld two rear ARB's together, not weld them to the chassis. This would be far from ideal as the rear would be super stiff and introduce a huge amount of oversteer - ideal for the drifter (whch Karan loves doing) but for road use no way!
Uprated ARB's make a very big difference, in most cases just as much as springs and shocks. Its a major way to tune the chassis.
Hartge E30 suspension was essentially a lowered version of Mtec suspesion with very similar springs rates and basically the same sort of damping as Mtec dampers - they got the E30 to handle much better by adding really hefty ARB's (22/18).
Its an area us E30 chaps have not really given much thought to hecne why im emphasising it so much.
The first car I noticed it on was Karan's GUG when he fitted Hartge ARB's. Big big difference.
Springs and shocks wear faster and most cars are on atleast their 2nd sets since being built.
Karan's welding comments was to weld two rear ARB's together, not weld them to the chassis. This would be far from ideal as the rear would be super stiff and introduce a huge amount of oversteer - ideal for the drifter (whch Karan loves doing) but for road use no way!
Uprated ARB's make a very big difference, in most cases just as much as springs and shocks. Its a major way to tune the chassis.
Hartge E30 suspension was essentially a lowered version of Mtec suspesion with very similar springs rates and basically the same sort of damping as Mtec dampers - they got the E30 to handle much better by adding really hefty ARB's (22/18).
Its an area us E30 chaps have not really given much thought to hecne why im emphasising it so much.
The first car I noticed it on was Karan's GUG when he fitted Hartge ARB's. Big big difference.
People say you notice a big difference replacing worn rear subframe bushes too, I didn't really. I did notice a bit of a difference the first time I drove it but that's all. Anyway, I'll believe you. If I am keeping this car I'll get some new bushes & ARB's.
When you all say that they make it handle better do you mean outright grip levels, balance (understeer Vs oversteer), both or something else? Changing the ARB's could change the balance (for example cause more oversteer) which might feel better (or at least more fun) to drive but could actually reduce the handling limits. I am not saying that is what it will do, just that it could so I want to know what your experience is.
Thanks,
Aston
When you all say that they make it handle better do you mean outright grip levels, balance (understeer Vs oversteer), both or something else? Changing the ARB's could change the balance (for example cause more oversteer) which might feel better (or at least more fun) to drive but could actually reduce the handling limits. I am not saying that is what it will do, just that it could so I want to know what your experience is.
Thanks,
Aston
BMW E30 323i with some stuff
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
Its quite hard to explain properly but here goes:
My car for example has 18mm front and 14mm rear bars.
Going H&R means Ive added 4mm to the back and the front and therefore the overall balance is the same.
What you notice is obvioulsy less roll but going round fast bends the car seems much more composed and changes direction aot easier without being unsettled.
When you change direction quickly normally the back end steps out quite hard and in this case it doesnt.
Now, M20 engines cars generally understeer quite a bit. As the H7R are adjutable you can stiffen the rear bar a little more and change the balance. What you notice once this is done is that the car takes bends more willingly and doesnt understeer.
Stiffen the rear bar too much however and youll be facing the other way.
How much you stiffen your bar also depends on the suspensiona and tyres you have but experimentation will get you a car that your comfortable with.
The difference is significant and the best thing is you can fine tune your car aswell.
My car for example has 18mm front and 14mm rear bars.
Going H&R means Ive added 4mm to the back and the front and therefore the overall balance is the same.
What you notice is obvioulsy less roll but going round fast bends the car seems much more composed and changes direction aot easier without being unsettled.
When you change direction quickly normally the back end steps out quite hard and in this case it doesnt.
Now, M20 engines cars generally understeer quite a bit. As the H7R are adjutable you can stiffen the rear bar a little more and change the balance. What you notice once this is done is that the car takes bends more willingly and doesnt understeer.
Stiffen the rear bar too much however and youll be facing the other way.
How much you stiffen your bar also depends on the suspensiona and tyres you have but experimentation will get you a car that your comfortable with.
The difference is significant and the best thing is you can fine tune your car aswell.
Ok, thanks.
By using the stiffness of the rear ARB to adjust the balance you are really just reducing the grip level at the rear aren't you? So it breaks away first? Wouldn't that mean the overall grip level is reduced slightly?
I wouldn't be much good at the setup stuff, I am already comfortable with my car. As long as it handles reasonably well I just drive it I think. I do want it to handle as well as it can though so I will probably get some ARB's. Cornering/handling is where the fun is, the straights are a lot less exciting.
Aston
Mine doesn't seem to do this, or not much, even on the dirt it seems fairly stable.M5pilot wrote:When you change direction quickly normally the back end steps out quite hard and in this case it doesnt.
I wouldn't say mine understeers quite a bit, probably just a little bit. It will understeer a little bit but a lot less than many other cars I have driven. That is with my LSD too which has more than normal preload so that probably causes a little bit.Now, M20 engines cars generally understeer quite a bit.
By using the stiffness of the rear ARB to adjust the balance you are really just reducing the grip level at the rear aren't you? So it breaks away first? Wouldn't that mean the overall grip level is reduced slightly?
I wouldn't be much good at the setup stuff, I am already comfortable with my car. As long as it handles reasonably well I just drive it I think. I do want it to handle as well as it can though so I will probably get some ARB's. Cornering/handling is where the fun is, the straights are a lot less exciting.
Aston
BMW E30 323i with some stuff
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
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billgatese30
- E30 Zone Team Member
- Posts: 10989
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Tyne & Wear
aston, i think in your case the best thing to do is to possibly get some new anti roll bars that do what Sal said.....that being increasing them by the same amount front to rear so that the overall balnece is the same, then get used to it and compare some lap times in similar conditions and see which was better
no point altering the balence of things if it seems ok
no point altering the balence of things if it seems ok
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Karan
- Married to the E30 Zone
- Posts: 8004
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Cheshunt, Hertfordshire
u can weld some metal bars to increase rigidity and its fine for daily use as i have been told by ppl who have done it....i dont just drift Sal, ive taken u out nr my house and uve seen how it grips even over bumpy surfaces,,,, GUG spends most time doing that and mways and i have set it up to my liking for ultimate grip.... however it can happily be provoked to go sideways....
So what are considered the best ARB's at the moment? I don't want super stiff because I think that could have a negative effect on handling, we have some bumpy roads and circuits here, but I would like improved handling. The H&R kit seems to be popular but there are I think 3 different types now? I will be buying from the Zone Shop of course.
Aston
Aston
BMW E30 323i with some stuff
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
1:05.17 @ Queensland Raceway Sprint track
1:10.09 @ Queensland Raceway Clubman track
1:21.67 @ Morgan Park Raceway
Karan,
I didnt mean to say you only drift - yes the car has fantatsic grip levels and is very impressive on the road. Even over the worst of surfaces it was very very good.
ARB choices:
Eibach - known to foul on the rear and way too expensive - used to sell on shop but its too much money compared to the H&R.
H&R - same as Hartge and tried and testes
Whiteline - available through Zone shop (this week) and very good.
I didnt mean to say you only drift - yes the car has fantatsic grip levels and is very impressive on the road. Even over the worst of surfaces it was very very good.
ARB choices:
Eibach - known to foul on the rear and way too expensive - used to sell on shop but its too much money compared to the H&R.
H&R - same as Hartge and tried and testes
Whiteline - available through Zone shop (this week) and very good.