'89 Sport issue , any assistance appreciated

[RickyRed]

Fellow Zoner's ,

I am having issues with my ’89 Sport , please take a look at the symptoms and work done and let me know if any of you have had this problem before. I have a mate that can look at it over the weekend but would be nice if I knew what parts to take along with me. Any assistance / idea’s would appreciated

89’ F Reg Sport , 137k

Issue:
Ӣ Engine intermittently splutters between 3500 and 4500 RPM but on occasion even at 2500 RPM
”¢ Normally I just tap off / change gear and it goes fine, this morning I lost all power but it didn’t cut out. I put it back into 2nd accelerated and it came back to life
Ӣ This afternoon I half-filled the tank and it revved fine for a few minutes then started spluttering again
Ӣ Sometimes on start-up it is fine and other times it splutters straight away
Ӣ She revs through the range when not under load / in neutral.
”¢ Sometimes she rev’s right through all the way through 4th and 5th gear and then 5 minutes later splutters again.
”¢ It feels like the rev limiter is kicking in or it’s running low on fuel , tap off change gear rev through and she clears.

Work Done :
”¢ Previous owner fitted a fuel pump just before I bought the car and I honestly don’t think he drove the car a lot before selling it to me ( It has done 11k over the last 11 years )
Ӣ Filled the tank and added injector cleaner , I had a bottle of slick 50 lying around. Drove +- 50 miles.
Ӣ changed the fuel filter and it drove fine for a few miles then started again, not sure if it made any difference to start with as it is intermittent so there could have been nothing wrong with the old filter ?
Ӣ I removed all of the visible air intake hoses as well as the intake box and checked for leaks , could not find any
Ӣ I found a split on the idle control valve inlet pipe right where it joins the manifold, I taped it with insulation tape but did not make a difference ( are there supposed to be clamps on this pipe ? it had none when I got the car ) New part ordered.
”¢ Removed the air filter and did a quick run , it seemed better but still spluttered. Again I couldn’t tell if there was a definite issue. New air filter ordered
Ӣ I have also ordered a new fuel filter



Any idea’s ?
I have discussed the following possibilities but don’t want to just start buying parts only to find I was going in the wrong direction.

”¢ Air intake issue ”“ checked hoses, found nothing unless it’s the idle control valve inlet pipe that needs replacing and jubilee clips adding ? I’ll change the hose and re-check all the hoses as well as fitting the new air filter.
Ӣ Airflow meter - ??
”¢ Contaminated Fuel from possible rusty tank - ? I honestly don’t believe the tank is rusted , there is no rust on the floor or arches at all , would it rust from the inside out ?
Ӣ Fuel pressure sensor - ??
Ӣ Injector failure at pressure - ??
”¢ Faulty plugs / lead’s - ??

Thanks for your time and Cheers to Meatballs 82 for sorting the parts a great price

[fearlessphil]

just a thought but it worth checking the throttle position sensor is working correctly it tells you how on the e30 wiki im sure grrmachine will be able to help you with the link

[RickyRed]

Thanks , I'll see if I can find it in the Wiki

[redcar]

What's the rotor arm and dizzy cap like?

[RickyRed]

Will take a look in the morning ... never thought of that ..

Thanks ..

[RickyRed]

Guages and panel lights are normal , the RPM stay's constant when it drops as it does when you hit the rev limiter , if you keep your foot down then it just stay's at 3500 rpm for example and sort of stays there but will not go up or give anymore power until you tap off and accelerate again ..

The fuel guage flickers from 1/4 to full tank but not sure it does that in synch with the spluttering issue so possibly not related

I will check the plug tomorrow morning , is it the twist type one located under the inlet manifold with the wires running to the injector rail ?

Thanks

[Grrrmachine]

Throttle Position Switch:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ion_Switch

and Blue Temp Sensor:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ug#Testing

[RickyRed]

Ok, I have checked the C191 plug. Opened the plug which was a bit dirty and a couple of contacts were showing signs of corrosion so cleaned these and the plug thread and replaced. on start up she idled a bit high for a few minutes then settled down to normal. I took her for a drive and she revved ok up to 4500 then started spluttering again.

Engines a bit hot now to check the dizzy cap and rotor so will do that later , then on to the TPS and BTS. I don't have a multimeter so will have to borrow one ...

Thanks for all the help , at least I can start crossing some possible issues of the list ..

[redcar]

Do you know when the rotor arm and dizzy cap were last changed? Are the ones currently on the engine from the oem manufacturer?

Good luck

[RickyRed]

I'm not sure so don't mind pulling it off and making sure it's in good shape so I can eliminate the possibility of them being knackered , I'll check in the morning ..

Thanks ..

[mb15]

If you search for stuttering and kangarooing there have been a few cases like this on the forum. Some are solved easy and some never find the answer. Reason i got rid of mine in the end. Replaced lots of stuff as everyone suggested but it never fixed it.

Also worth checking for air leaks or a faulty Air Flow Meter with a sticky inlet flap. Clean out your idle control valve with a bit of carb cleaner, can't hurt either.

If your air flow meter has the little red cap removed it could mean someone has messed with the fuel and air mixture which can also cause similar symptoms from running rich/lean.

[RickyRed]

Thanks for the info , I will add that to my check list ..

Does anyone know if a duff fuel pressure regulator could cause the spluttering ?

[mb15]

If it is running ok sometimes i would say the fuel pressure reg is alright. They are a cheap part to swap out, make sure you get a new O ring with the new one as they can split easy when popping the old one off. I tried this but did not help mine.

Could be a blocked injector. They really want cleaning ultra-sonicly rather than red x or such like.

[RickyRed]

Thanks again , I'll add it to the list too ..

I saw a thread on here regarding the injectors being cleaned for £ 66.00 inc return postage so I might look at doing them if the easier fixes don't work ..

[Low_E30]

Was the fuel pump changed for a working second hand one, or is a receipt present for a brand new off the shelf one??

Carb cleaner into the Idle control valve as said above, also carb cleaner into the throttle body itself (do it whilst it is off when inpecting the TPS), clean the inside out with a rag to get it clean if neccessary, also spray it into the AFM as well...

Make sure the brake booster pipes are properly fitted into the throttle body and not just sitting in it all loose....

[RickyRed]

Throttle Position Switch:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ion_Switch

and Blue Temp Sensor:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ug#Testing

Thanks for the links , Got a multi meter now.

Question , sorry if it's a dumb one but when testing the blue temp sensor or the TPS , does the ignition need to be on or engine running ?

Also am I correct in thinking that you test the actual sensors and not just the fittings from the loom ?

There is no point me trying this if Im not doing it properly

[RickyRed]

Was the fuel pump changed for a working second hand one, or is a receipt present for a brand new off the shelf one??

Carb cleaner into the Idle control valve as said above, also carb cleaner into the throttle body itself (do it whilst it is off when inpecting the TPS), clean the inside out with a rag to get it clean if neccessary, also spray it into the AFM as well...

Make sure the brake booster pipes are properly fitted into the throttle body and not just sitting in it all loose....

Apparently a brand new fuel pump was fitted but I don't have a receipt. This apparently started after the new pump was fitted but the previous owner drove it very occasionally so didn't notice it as much , would a faulty pump cause the same issues ?

I have no reason to doubt the Gentleman , the car is in fantastic condition and it has been really well looked after.

Im going to give all the above a clean in the morning and will add the brake booster pipe check to my list ..

Thank you all for the help I really appreciate it

[RickyRed]

Do you know when the rotor arm and dizzy cap were last changed? Are the ones currently on the engine from the oem manufacturer?

Good luck

Removed the Dizzy cap and rotor arm this morning ,they are not new but didnt look 20 years old either so possibly been replaced at some stage.There were some deposits on the terminals , I gave the terminals a clean and replaced.

This did not seem to be the problem,

This morning she is stuttering in neutral too ..

Another thing off the check list ..

[redcar]

Do you know when the rotor arm and dizzy cap were last changed? Are the ones currently on the engine from the oem manufacturer?

Good luck

Removed the Dizzy cap and rotor arm this morning ,they are not new but didnt look 20 years old either so possibly been replaced at some stage.There were some deposits on the terminals , I gave the terminals a clean and replaced.

This did not seem to be the problem,

This morning she is stuttering in neutral too ..

Another thing off the check list ..

Interesting...I had a similar problem as yours on my e30, and changed a lot of things prior to the dizzy and rotor arm. I think that the rotor arm and dizzy cap are serviceable items. How sure are you these two bits aren't worn out?

What are your ht leads like? It may be worth checking the resistance on all of them.

[RickyRed]

Do you know when the rotor arm and dizzy cap were last changed? Are the ones currently on the engine from the oem manufacturer?

Good luck

Removed the Dizzy cap and rotor arm this morning ,they are not new but didnt look 20 years old either so possibly been replaced at some stage.There were some deposits on the terminals , I gave the terminals a clean and replaced.

This did not seem to be the problem,

This morning she is stuttering in neutral too ..

Another thing off the check list ..

Interesting...I had a similar problem as yours on my e30, and changed a lot of things prior to the dizzy and rotor arm. I think that the rotor arm and dizzy cap are serviceable items. How sure are you these two bits aren't worn out?

What are your ht leads like? It may be worth checking the resistance on all of them.

I can't be 100% sure without swapping it out with another one, the terminals were worn but not massively and the rotor arm cleaned up pretty well.Once i get through some more testing I might have no option but to splash out the £100 and replace both.

HT leads look ok but they are still the originals from what I can tell so will have to read up on how to test the resistance .. Im not bad on the mechanical side of things but Im rubbish with electrics !!

[Green]

I know you've checked it but try jiggling the c191 plug around while the car is running.

My car used to suffer from very similar issues, I tried so many things to try and resolve it I think I lost track after a while of what I replaced/cleaned up.
It could also well be worth checking the fuel pump relay under the hood, once again when the car is running just wiggle the wires slightly. I remember I replaced all the connectors with new tighter ones which resolved problems with my fuel pump not functioning correctly.

[RickyRed]

I know you've checked it but try jiggling the c191 plug around while the car is running.

My car used to suffer from very similar issues, I tried so many things to try and resolve it I think I lost track after a while of what I replaced/cleaned up.
It could also well be worth checking the fuel pump relay under the hood, once again when the car is running just wiggle the wires slightly. I remember I replaced all the connectors with new tighter ones which resolved problems with my fuel pump not functioning correctly.

I'll give this a bash in the morning , added to list ..

Thanks ..

[RickyRed]

Throttle Position Switch:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ion_Switch

and Blue Temp Sensor:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ug#Testing

Thanks for the links , Got a multi meter now.

Question , sorry if it's a dumb one but when testing the blue temp sensor or the TPS , does the ignition need to be on or engine running ?

Also am I correct in thinking that you test the actual sensors and not just the fittings from the loom ?

There is no point me trying this if Im not doing it properly

Ok, I checked the blue temp sensor when I got to work and it measured 400 ohms when hot. I will re-check before I leave tonight and see if it comes out at the 3 / 4000 ohms when cold as per the instructions. I took the measurement directly off of the sensor.


I also checked the TPS but I'm not sure If I did it correctly ?

Checked pin 1 & 2 on the actual TPS and got :

0.3 Ohms @ idle ( engine running )
0 Ohms @ 2/3 throttle ( engine running )

Checked pin 1 & 3 on the actual TPS and got :

Ohms @ idle ( engine running )
Ohms @ 2/3 throttle ( engine running )

The above didn't seem right so I checked the pins off of the loom plug and got the following :

pin 1 & 2

0 Ohms @ Idle ( engine running )
0 Ohms @ 2/3 Throttle

pin 1 & 3

1753 Ohms @ idle
1800 Ohms @ 2/3 throttle

After all of this,I am none the wiser , the readings do not match the instructions so I'm guessing the TPS is not functioning properly.

Im going to pull the throttle body off and clean the TPS as well as the airflow meter inlet flap, idle control valve and throttle body inlet.

If anyone understands the above readings or knows how to do this properly then please let me know ..

Thank-you all for your help the list of things to check is getting bigger but I am ticking things off as we go ..

[ucpsale]

Negative lead from body to the engine?

[RickyRed]

Negative lead from body to the engine?

As in the Engine Earth Lead ? Where about's is it located ?

[daimlerman]

Negative lead from body to the engine?

As in the Engine Earth Lead ? Where about's is it located ?

O/S engine mount to a stud on the chassis rail,local auto electrician can make you one up for a couple of quid.Point here is that the ECU runs odd voltages for the engine sensors,so any current drop can cause running issues.

For what it cost's,though,I'd have your injectors off to Injectortune!

[RickyRed]

Negative lead from body to the engine?

As in the Engine Earth Lead ? Where about's is it located ?

O/S engine mount to a stud on the chassis rail,local auto electrician can make you one up for a couple of quid.Point here is that the ECU runs odd voltages for the engine sensors,so any current drop can cause running issues.

For what it cost's,though,I'd have your injectors off to Injectortune!

Thanks, Earth lead added to the to do list ..

I'm going to try and get through all of the no cost testing by Friday , then drop the fuel filter again on Saturday and cut it open to see what sort of gunk is in there.I just got a new one from Meatballs 82 , If it's clear I'll pull the injectors and send them off to Injectortune. Is he still doing the £ 66 special ?