RHD E30 M3!

[C2HEG]

Just spotted this, seems very cheap for what it is.. http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/54711.htm

[paulj]

Converting to right hand drive drops the price quite a bit, I think its because the handling goes tits up as they have to use a steering column/rack from a 325 and this is not as good as an m3 one. But donÔš't quote me on that

[Hyperion]

wow, i would have that, we had a tread on here a while back, and everyone was commenting about the handling let down when you convert to RHD. I say it wont make a difference because non of us will ever drive the car on the limit to notice the "lesser" handling difference. No one over here with RHD cars are complaining.
RHD M3 Goodness!!!

[astondg]

I don't think a different steering rack is going to affect handling at all, it will just mean the steering is slower and so it won't feel as direct and might be harder to use in parking and opposite lock situations.

I think you would be able to put on an E36 steering rack conversion like any other E30 though? That would put it back to about the same as the LHD M3, or maybe even better with an E36 M3 rack? The exhaust manifold might be in the way but you could get that modified and I think it had to be modified for the RHD E30 rack anyway.

Aston

[Gwynleym10]

wow, i would have that, we had a tread on here a while back, and everyone was commenting about the handling let down when you convert to RHD. I say it wont make a difference because non of us will ever drive the car on the limit to notice the "lesser" handling difference. No one over here with RHD cars are complaining.
RHD M3 Goodness!!!

I'm sure plenty of people would notice the difference otherwise what is the point of having an m3? might as well get a 325i...

There are some "good" RHD conversions where you use e36 stearing parts rather than 325i ones.

Its also not just the steering, apperently not having the pedal right behind the brake servo you loose some "feel"

[Hyperion]

ok, maybe i should have said i wont make out the difference, and the point for me would be the fact i have a M3 that i can drive everyday. Over here in SA we never got the M3, and i personaly dont like driving a LHD can in a RHD country, i tried it and it sucks. hmmm RHD M3...one day

[nav786]

i actually prefer left hand drive, my mate has a lefthooker and i just prefer the feel. its better changing gears with your right hand IMO. it does have its let downs in a RHD country as its hard to see round bends and overtaking.

[steerfromtherear]

When Birds did the conversion they used 325 sport steering racks and suspension components.
Now, none of the 325 sport owners complain about their handling, so it must be acceptable, but the M3 stuff is quite a bit different, and provides a lot more feel over a 325 sport.

With regards to using e36 bits to get that feel back I have heard that e36 owners are converting to e30 m3 bottom arms and using other bits (what I don't know) to improve handling.

Imo I reckon if you can't drive a lefty then a right hand converted e30 M3 will still be a quality car, especially a Birds converted one.

[Simon]

When Birds did the conversion they used 325 sport steering racks and suspension components.
Now, none of the 325 sport owners complain about their handling, so it must be acceptable, but the M3 stuff is quite a bit different, and provides a lot more feel over a 325 sport.

325i Sport steering rack is no different to any other E30 (bar M3).

[billgatese30]

When Birds did the conversion they used 325 sport steering racks and suspension components.

suspension didn't change, as far as i know, just the steering rack

and yes, they are still better handling and quicker in the twisties than a std 325sport thats for sure.

[adamS]

Also wasn't the exhaust manifold different?
Loss of power associated with?

[gary]

I have an E30 M3 LHD and I don't find it any worse driving on the wrong side of the car than on the correct (right).

The car has more than enough power to hold back a bit to increase the view down both sides of the "target" vehicle before you go for the overtake, plus onleft hand bends you actually get a better view.

Each to their own and I would discount a RHD M3 as long as it was a Bird's converstion, but the LHD are the one's to have, simply due to the rack.

[steerfromtherear]

suspension didn't change, as far as i know, just the steering rack

and yes, they are still better handling and quicker in the twisties than a std 325sport thats for sure.

Didn't the M3 have an all alloy bottom arm set up?

I might be completely wrong as I have never owned one, but I did look into fitting these bottom arms to my e36 M3 at one point.

[billgatese30]

Didn't the M3 have an all alloy bottom arm set up?

i think they did, but i don't think it changed with the RHD conversion.

i think the only differences between RHD and LHD m3's are

value
steering rack
possibly exhaust changes
errrr.......interior obviously....can't think of much else to be honest.

i could be worng about the above, but we'll have to wait and see if anyone else knows any more

[gary]

Bill ask Floddy

[kam-325i]

I know that the front wishbones/control arms on M3's are alloy.

[Simon]

Didn't the M3 have an all alloy bottom arm set up?

i think they did, but i don't think it changed with the RHD conversion.

i think the only differences between RHD and LHD m3's are

value
steering rack
possibly exhaust changes
errrr.......interior obviously....can't think of much else to be honest.

i could be worng about the above, but we'll have to wait and see if anyone else knows any more

Spot on with the abobe, the manifold was different to clear the steering column. Also there's the difference in the braking feel, due to the extended brake mechs.

As for the alloy arms, yes they were fitted to the M3, but also 325i tourings, only difference is weight and price, alloy arms can be fitted to any E30, I'm changing the arms on my M3 shortly and will be fitting steel ones.

[Rich_W]

What I find funny is that peopple with a converted car think its worth more than a LHD one.

I NEVER considered a converted car. LHD is just not a problem. Any one that cant adjust to LHD in a week shouldn't be on the road period! They are the mongrels of ther M3 world.

OK so Car Park barriers are a minor issue, and maybe overtaking if you are thick. But of all the M3s I know, nobody has had a "oh-my-God-I-can't-live-with-this" moment.

[Bob_S]

saw a rhd e30 last night gave him a zone card. was a really nice example of an m3 had azevs on and a silvery/grey colour not one i have seen before? said it was an early one with only 200bhp

[c76jon]

if its an early one it will be 195hp
and if its rhd withiut a proper hartge adapted manifold it wont be anything near that and iam not convibnced it would be even with the hartge item

for rhd conversion the steering column needs to go straight thru the manifold and adapted ones have to be modified seriously for this to occur

this modification creates power loss.

early e30m3s asa far as iam aware didnt have alloy bottom arms

john

[pacerpete]

Jon haven't you got any polishing to do ?.

Jon is right, the early turds had steel arms and the really early turds even had concentric (standard e30) wishbone bushes, not the eccentric ones.

[c76jon]

Jon haven't you got any polishing to do ?.

Jon is right, the early turds had steel arms and the really early turds even had concentric (standard e30) wishbone bushes, not the eccentric ones.

LOL!!!
i prefer waxing pete...pass the kleenex!!

did you get my PM pete ??

john

[steerfromtherear]

Any one that cant adjust to LHD in a week shouldn't be on the road period!

My M was left hand drive and I agree. Never saw the confusion with overtaking and took perhaps 2 hours to get used to.

Couple of weeks tops to really feel that I could start chucking it round corners without worrying where my wheels were

[herman]

I deliver cars for a living and some days. like today, driven 8 cars. Started in my LHD M3 to work, then drove a E30 325i to be picked up by a trailer we use it as a runner to get back from jobs, its in Southampton at the moment. It will be driven back when we deliver a Freelander tomorrow.

Next new Audi A4, Freelander, Audi TT, VW Polo, LT 35 VW car transporter and a VW Beetle, M3 home.

First you get used to LHD in a week but after that easy to swop, drove both e30 M3 and 325i today, different cars altogether. Great turn in on the M3 you can feel all the corners of the car.

Drove a LHD Lambo Galardo last week, you can see just a well thru corners but you got power to take anything.

You just get used LHD and you don't notice the difference.

[astondg]

If I had a RHD converted M3 I would want:
- E36 steering rack
- Pedal box maybe or some modificitations to keep the pedal feel
- A completely new manifold designed to fit and keep the power, not just an adjustment to the standard one.

I don't know if you would loose that much power from the manifold adjustment though. A very good full exhaust is worth what, 10hp maybe, over the average factory exhaust on an average car (although I didn't get anywhere near this with the full exhaust, 6 branch and straight through mufflers on my 323i) so surely only making a modification to the routing of the manifold (but keeping the same diameter pipes and stuff and the whole rest of the exhaust) can't loose more than 5hp which isn't a massive loss. If I did it I would get a new manifold made up (or Maybe this Hartge one you mentioned) that would still keep the equal length or whatever it needs, really it might just have to be an inch or two longer is all the difference that I can see, so I doubt that would loose too much power. Feel free to correct me.

Aston

[c76jon]

the lhd manifold on e30 m3 is tight and i mean tight up against body of car .the only way thru is middle
this is an //M car and thus much R andD went into manifold to extract the power so i guess changing it wont be good for power.

in the 20 years car has been about noone has really made a "better " manifold apart from bmws evolutions of same part.

hartge one if u can find one will cost u 600 quid plus second hand

you will ruin a brilliant car.just drive it LHD.its not a hassle

john

[Pal318is]

My mate bought a RHD M3 quite a few years ago, he didn't keep it long (D&D the idiot) but while he had it, he had to spend loads on a new manifold as his old one had cracked why? I don't know...Admittedly the car was a bad example of a RHD conversion and it just never looked right to me. He had a full stainless stell exhaust put on at the same time and it did sound the nuts, but each to their own...that's what I say....I'd have a LHD version any day of the week

[astondg]

the lhd manifold on e30 m3 is tight and i mean tight up against body of car .the only way thru is middle
this is an //M car and thus much R andD went into manifold to extract the power so i guess changing it wont be good for power.

in the 20 years car has been about noone has really made a "better " manifold apart from bmws evolutions of same part.

hartge one if u can find one will cost u 600 quid plus second hand

you will ruin a brilliant car.just drive it LHD.its not a hassle

john

I can't drive it LHD here, or I could but I would get pulled over and loose my license and then I couldn't drive it anyway. I wouldn't like to do it either, I know the E30 M3 is a classic, but if I ever want to own and drive one then that is what I have to do.

I know a lot of R&D went into developing it and I am sure there would be some power loss but what I was saying was that a full (whole exhaust from engine back) well developed exhaust can really only give an average of a 10hp (a lot don't even achieve that and that is only over an average factory exhaust system). So the M3's exhaust might gain the same 10hp over an average one through a combination of manifold and the rest of the piping and mufflers then just a relatively small change to the only the exhaust manifold isn't going to loose any more than 10hp, I would guess more like 5hp at the most and if the new manifold was designed properly and the same R&D done with the new space restrictions then I don't know if it would even be that much.

Now 5hp is a loss but I doubt it would even be noticable when driving the car, I just gained about 12hp at the wheels in my 323i (with gains all through the power and torque curves) and I can't honestly say I can feel the difference, it pulls better to the redline but I can't say that I am accelerating any quicker. I am sure that 5hp could be returned with some other mods, I know the S14 is very highly tuned to begin with but the later versions had more. Ultimately not powerful as a LHD but I doubt it would be noticable to anyone that wasn't using it in some fairly serious racing.

I really doubt it would ruin the car.

Aston

[Lordschleife]

Yeah but the steering rack would, its the worst thing by far about normal e30's, waaaaaaay too slow
The e30 m3 has a quicker rack and one of the best steering feel of any BMW
The e36 rack is quicker than a normal e30 rack, but feels a bit vague, doesnt really communicate to you.

I couldnt bring myself to do it to an e30 m3, even if I did live in austrailia.
I'd pick a different car
Porsche 968 maybe, or stick to a 318is/325i sport if it had to be an e30

Oh and re: the exhaust, you should hear the power losses people report when fitting a scorpion exhaust to a std LHD m3

[astondg]

I have the E36 steering rack on my 323i and it isn't that bad. I need feel too becuase I race on dirt and it is kind of important to know what is happening with the changing grip levels at the front. It doesn't matter quite as much on bitumen because the grip stays fairly constant and is usually very high, it is still nice to have communicative steering though. What about the E36 M3?

Ok how about this, I would get a custom steering rack made up too. It would be based on the E30 M3 rack. If I get to do this I will do it porperly.

I don't want a 968 because compared to the E30 M3 they are heavy and their engines don't look like anything special (maybe they were when it was new), big capacity 4 cylinder that doesn't rev like an S14 and doesn't make as much hp/L.

The E30 M3 is the only (or one of very few) car I really want that I might be able to afford sometime soon (or maybe ever).

I wouldn't be fitting a scorpion exhaust though and that sounds like the whole exhaust, I am talking about just a relatively small modification to the manifold. I know BMW knows what they are doing and they put in a lot of R&D but your trying to tell me that no-one else in the whole world can build a new manifold (still based on the original design if necessary) that just has a slightly different routing of the pipes to clear the steering and has proper R&D and not loose more than 5hp. It just doesn't seem right to me.

Aston

[Lordschleife]

I was basing my e36 rack experience on the e36 m3
Maybe it feels better on an e30 and/or with different levels of assist?

Yes a 968 is heavier (something I really dislike in a car, for me an e30 is waaay too heavy really, having driven rwd toyota starlet (850kg?) and honda CRX (950kg) in the previously)
I did mean to say the 968cs which is a good 50-100kg lighter depending on options
It is also faster then an e30 m3 and was also one of the best handling cars of its era (that just after the e30 m3)
I think the engine was reasonably special in the balancing such a large 4pot, do agree I prefer something more revvy though
Has to be said the cornering grip in the 968cs (having taken a couple of passenger laps round the ring) is unreal

Fair point about the manifold

Maybe you should find an m3 thats in a sorry state then convert it to rhd and bring it back to life, I wouldn't have a problem with that, cause it would only be broken for parts otherwise

[astondg]

I was basing my e36 rack experience on the e36 m3
Maybe it feels better on an e30 and/or with different levels of assist?

Mine is probably actually a fraction too light but I have heard that it is possible to get a new pulley for the power steering pump to make it a little bit heavier. It isn't the ultimate in steering but it isn't bad. I probably prefer non-power assisted anyway but that would require a light car or lots of turns (which I don't want).

Yes a 968 is heavier (something I really dislike in a car, for me an e30 is waaay too heavy really, having driven rwd toyota starlet (850kg?) and honda CRX (950kg) in the previously)

I like light cars too, although something around 1000kg would probably be ok. A bit of weight stops it being thrown around by bumps and stuff but I don't mind the car bouncing around so much as long as it still follows the line I want. I have a 1974 Mitsubishi Lancer (about 830kg) and I actually think it is one of the most fun cars I have driven. The bumps bounce it around a bit but it still always goes where you want it too.

I did mean to say the 968cs which is a good 50-100kg lighter depending on options
It is also faster then an e30 m3 and was also one of the best handling cars of its era (that just after the e30 m3)
I think the engine was reasonably special in the balancing such a large 4pot, do agree I prefer something more revvy though
Has to be said the cornering grip in the 968cs (having taken a couple of passenger laps round the ring) is unreal

The 968cs looks good, still about 1300kg though (vs 1400kg for the normal 968). Something to look at. I don't really want one though, I would only be buying it because I couldn't get an M3. The M3 is the car I want.

I like revvy engines, I have a video of an S2000 around the nurburgring and it sounds very nice at 9000+rpm . What I want is a sports car about 1000kg with a 2.5L V6 that revs to about 9000rpm and has about 230kW. I hope to be able to build one someday and I have started to make some plans. 1000kg is to include an AWD system although I'm still not sure if that is the best way, I like RWD, so the weight might be more around 800 to 900kg like an elise.

Maybe you should find an m3 thats in a sorry state then convert it to rhd and bring it back to life, I wouldn't have a problem with that, cause it would only be broken for parts otherwise

That is an option, as long as the engine is good (I imagine they could be expensive to rebuild).

Aston

[kevscecotto]

LHD is cool i'd have another Lhd car 2moro its all part of the m3 charm you get used to it in a few days ,the worst bit was the dogleg box , as for alloy arms only the sport evo had them as std

[c76jon]

evo2s had them as standard for sure and im pretty sure late 215hp cars did too

john

[Simon]

LHD is cool i'd have another Lhd car 2moro its all part of the m3 charm you get used to it in a few days ,the worst bit was the dogleg box , as for alloy arms only the sport evo had them as std

Woohoo, my cars a sport evo!!