Is £450 too much for an exhaust?

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Jos
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:10 am

ok, went to a Powerflow bloke today to look at getting an exhaust for the Touring, so we stuck it up on the ramps and had a chat, basically I am looking for twin exit twin tailpipe (M3 style sorta) and he said no problem provided the rear battery box is cut out of the way. I said no problem, what about if I have a 3.5 M30 in there. Again not a problem as they will just fabricate from the downpipe back.

So Ԛ£400 - Ԛ£450 for a 3 silencer system, 1 centrebox + 2 short backboxes, single 70mm pipe from the downpipe to the centrebox and 50mm from the centre to each backbox all in 304 grade stainless.

Does that sound alright?

Also discovered that the Touring isn't compatible with 4 post lifts :) Kinda ripped the stoneguard off infront of the petrol tank lol, beaten back into shape and reattached now though :)
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Chaos
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:16 am

sounds pricy m8 to me.
and personally im not a fan of powerflow.

have u checked the zone shop cos theres some good deals on there.

see here for example
http://www.e30zone.co.uk/modules.php?na ... ic&t=16393
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:47 am

my 318is exhaust (standard) cost over 400 quid :(
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tomstickland
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:36 am

Longlife charged me just over Ԛ£300 for a complete system in Stainless Steel. So it's not too bad a price, though I have heard variable things about Powerflow. A lot depends on which franchise you go to.
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Stoney_god
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:42 am

I had a powerflow on my 2.2 V-TEC Prelude and it was arse..... That cost me Ԛ£500 but I binned it in the end for a Mongoose system.
oneblueleg
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:45 am

Yes... there's a place near me that will fit a custom stainless exhaust front to back (my quote was for my 320i convertible) to your sound requirements for Ԛ£280!

Top Gear Basingstoke Ltd
Moniton Estate, West Ham Lane, Basingstoke, Hampshire RG22 6NQ
Tel: 01256 472150
Adammcf
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:51 am

Powerflow is pure scrap. Might look good for while but will soon rust away. They use decent stainless for the tail pipes but really crap low grade stuff for the pipes.
M5pilot
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:10 pm

You cant just make an exhaust. it needs to be tested.

These custom exhaust places just stick on what ever bore size pipes they want without knowing the effect it will have on back pressure which in turn is going to effect BHP and torque.

Your better off buying something like a Mongoose. At least we know it doesnt lose you power!
oneblueleg
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:05 pm

M5pilot wrote:You cant just make an exhaust. it needs to be tested.

These custom exhaust places just stick on what ever bore size pipes they want without knowing the effect it will have on back pressure which in turn is going to effect BHP and torque.

Your better off buying something like a Mongoose. At least we know it doesnt lose you power!
Good stuff... you learn something new every day...
JonnyDrift
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:39 pm

Which Powerflow did you use Jos?Ballymena one is very good but as Adam says they do use inferior steel for the inner pipes.Depends on how long you plan on keeping the car.
M5pilot
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:53 pm

The steel! There's alot of mild steel in it, I think more mild than stainless to be honest. They rust like hell.
Fushion_Julz
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:28 pm

M5pilot wrote:You cant just make an exhaust. it needs to be tested.

These custom exhaust places just stick on what ever bore size pipes they want without knowing the effect it will have on back pressure which in turn is going to effect BHP and torque.

Your better off buying something like a Mongoose. At least we know it doesnt lose you power!
Actually, you can make an exhaust...I've done a few...

The golden rule is "flow as much gas as quickly as possible"
The one I built for my racer worked superbly....The 4 branch (into 1) manifold and collector pipe I bought ready made, then made up the remainder of the system using staright and angled 2.25" ID pipe, a 2002 turbo centre box and a Peco "cherry bomb" as the rear box...Passed all noise tests, both static and trackside (even at Goodwood), and the motor produced 198bhp on the official test...

My Mercedes 609D van currently has a home-built system since I decided that getting the rear half banged about on rough surfaces and it restricting access to the spare wheel was a pain, I made a side-exit system with a single, large box....No noisier then the original 2-box and no noticeable loss of power or torque....
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Moofles
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:50 pm

do you mean e46 m3 style? Ԛ£450 is cheap, for that. Not for a single side system though. Unfortunately, you don't have the system tested for you before they make it, or anything - it's more a looks thing. But a couple of things:

- When i had a similar exhaust made for my old e30 I could choose different grades of steel for the exhaust (not just tailpipes). Might be worth investigating (better steel was more but not a lot more).
- The relative power gains (or losses) from an exhaust are not *huge*. So you might be willing to [possibly] sacrifice a bit for the look you want. I probably would :D
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:25 pm

got onr made up similar for my 325 touring,1 extra large rear silencer with no mid boxes,wasnt enough ground clearance for a big bore so had to run 2 x 2.5 inch pipes straight through, cost me Ԛ£380+ vat ,so yours isnt to bad for 3 boxes.
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:37 pm

A company I am aware of who will do custom jobs are Quicksilver, but I know nothing of their work, where they are etc. Just throwing a name into the pot, but I think they are fairly well regarded, but i have no idea how pricey their stuff is, probably $$$$$$$$$$$$!

worth investigating though?

Anyone got experience of these guys?
Jos
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:41 pm

M5Pilot wrote:You cant just make an exhaust. it needs to be tested.

These custom exhaust places just stick on what ever bore size pipes they want without knowing the effect it will have on back pressure which in turn is going to effect BHP and torque.

Your better off buying something like a Mongoose. At least we know it doesnt lose you power!
Problem with buy an off the shelf system is the M30 downpipes are in a different place and have different bore sizes so mating it becomes tricky, I also REALLY want twin exit twin pipe. I think 70mm will flow ok, I know that they are supposed to be pulse matched to the engine displacement to generate standing wave low pressure and high pressure areas to maximise scavenging, but with a standard manifold and downpipe, I really don't think it will make a toss of difference. Might get that book on 4 stroke tuning, supposed to have lots of header/exhaust info in it. If I can work out what I need I will just tell them to build to that.
Adammcf wrote:Powerflow is pure scrap. Might look good for while but will soon rust away. They use decent stainless for the tail pipes but really crap low grade stuff for the pipes.
Yes heard the same thing but a couple of friends of mine have them and they are not rusting, it's supposed to be 304 grade stainless, which is what more or less everyone uses, if it isn't then it is against Trade Descriptions and you can get a refund/replacement. On that all the systems come with lifetime warranty, if it rusts I will get them to replace it FOC, full new system every year for free sounds good to me.
JonnyDrift wrote:Which Powerflow did you use Jos?Ballymena one is very good but as Adam says they do use inferior steel for the inner pipes.Depends on how long you plan on keeping the car.
Nope, Dee's Exhausts in Newtownabbey, whilst I haven't heard anything directly bad about Gilbert, the boys in Newtownabbey are supposed to be much better.
Moofles wrote:- When i had a similar exhaust made for my old e30 I could choose different grades of steel for the exhaust (not just tailpipes). Might be worth investigating (better steel was more but not a lot more).
- The relative power gains (or losses) from an exhaust are not *huge*. So you might be willing to [possibly] sacrifice a bit for the look you want. I probably would
304 is normal grade for exhausts the next one up is 321 grade, then 347. there is also a 316 which is used in marine applications because of salt, hmm that would be the choice for here on the roads too :D Powerflow advertise 304 as what they use, so they damn better. 321 is aircraft grade and the price is quite scary..
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tomstickland
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:04 pm

You cant just make an exhaust. it needs to be tested.

These custom exhaust places just stick on what ever bore size pipes they want without knowing the effect it will have on back pressure which in turn is going to effect BHP and torque.

Your better off buying something like a Mongoose. At least we know it doesnt lose you power!
That's very true in regard to manifolds and downpipes, but the rest of the system is really just a pipe. It has to have about the correct diameter, but a decent place will give proper advice. ie: putting a 2.5" system on a 1.1 Corsa would be a total joke, as would a 1" system on a 325.
I don't think that the major players make any more effort than just welding a load of tube up.
JonnyDrift
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Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:45 am

Jos wrote:Nope, Dee's Exhausts in Newtownabbey, whilst I haven't heard anything directly bad about Gilbert, the boys in Newtownabbey are supposed to be much better.
In Ballymena they have no affiliation with Carnoisseur anymore-Stevie is out on his own.I heard dodgy welding tales from Dees-maybe unfounded tho.
Jos
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Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:06 pm

lol, I suppose if you listen long enough you will hear stuff about anyone, I might give Stevie a call as-well then and see what he recons.
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Chaos
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Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:19 pm

tomstickland wrote:That's very true in regard to manifolds and downpipes, but the rest of the system is really just a pipe. It has to have about the correct diameter, but a decent place will give proper advice. ie: putting a 2.5" system on a 1.1 Corsa would be a total joke, as would a 1" system on a 325.
not sure about that.
I don't think that the major players make any more effort than just welding a load of tube up.
i think they do.
i know a few ppl who have been the guinea pigs for exhausts, and theyve all had to give the car up for several days whilst various stuff is tested.
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Andy325i
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Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:36 pm

Longlife all day long. And whats with the 3 boxes? Be a man about it and get that center box gone! Only joking, but it does sound a lot better with it gone.

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Jos
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:32 pm

Just spent most of the day reskinning my backbox, hopefully the MOT bloke will appreciate the effort lol..

Came out quite well considering it was my 1st serious attempt at TiG welding, well the bit I did before I ran out of gas was pretty good, then the rest of it was stick welded with 2.5mm rods, kinda tricky on 0.8mm steel sheet but it's done now.

Regarding the centre section removal...

http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.asp ... &kw=13&p=7

Ok thats the backbox removed, so only single box on it too, sounds f**king awesome, bet it's well over 100dB though.. might get a section that can replace the centrebox as-well, then I can choose:)
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Jos
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:36 pm

JonnyDrift wrote: In Ballymena they have no affiliation with Carnoisseur anymore-Stevie is out on his own.I heard dodgy welding tales from Dees-maybe unfounded tho.
Here, you get yer Mongoose fitted yet?
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tomstickland
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:53 pm

Chaos wrote:
tomstickland wrote:That's very true in regard to manifolds and downpipes, but the rest of the system is really just a pipe. It has to have about the correct diameter, but a decent place will give proper advice. ie: putting a 2.5" system on a 1.1 Corsa would be a total joke, as would a 1" system on a 325.
not sure about that.
Read "modern engine tuning" and "Performance 4 stroke tuning" by A Graham Bell.
Sure, on rally cars they might try several arrangements, but they're searching for a few more BHP on a high rpm highly tuned engine where big cam overlap etc makes exhaust performance important.

The big names in aftermarket systems are going to be more concerned with fit of the system than performance. As long as it's got better bends and a slightly larger diameter then the std system is going to have less flow restriction than the OEM system.

Well, put it this way, I reckon they fabricate a system, fit it to a test mule and then check that the car is at least making a bit more than the old std system.

To a degree I agree with what you're saying - a big name off the shelf performance system has a more traceable pedigree than something that some cheery chap knocked up out of tube. However, I really don't think that any of them are spending too long searching for every last bit of performance.
Last edited by tomstickland on Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jos
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:57 pm

How much manifold design stuff is in that Performance 4 stroke tuning book, I was going to get it, is it worth it? Really got a notion to do some reading on manifolds and stuff like that, apparently a lot of the book is to do with carb'd engines.. is it worth getting?
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tomstickland
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Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:00 am

Both books share about 70% of the material anyway.

He gave a few rules of thumb for manifolds and then said that the only real way of really doing it is to dyno test a load of designs.

The 4 stroke performance book is possibly the more intresting because it talks about what rally tuners get up and other silliness for big power blocks.

One of the good stories is about how they flow tested all the production heads and cherry picked the best ones for the motorsport division. Then one day they found that the ones that flowed the most didn't actually make the most power.
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Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:03 pm

Jos wrote:
JonnyDrift wrote: In Ballymena they have no affiliation with Carnoisseur anymore-Stevie is out on his own.I heard dodgy welding tales from Dees-maybe unfounded tho.
Here, you get yer Mongoose fitted yet?
I do indeed-i can meet you in Dundonald for a gander at it......when the streets here have returned to normality :roll:
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Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:32 pm

Whats the review on the sound of the MOngoose?
JonnyDrift
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Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:38 pm

M5pilot wrote:Whats the review on the sound of the MOngoose?
Sounds really good-not as rash as the Scorpions-brings out the 6cylinder sound well but is quiet with motorway cruising.Perfect noise wise.
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