its a question of bhp

[Chaos]

standard 2.5 m20

add in the following

zone chip
decent 6 branch manifold
scorpion exhaist (or similar)
bbtb
schrick 288/288


any ideas on what itd be pushing out - assuming engine condition is good etc

i was thinking around 200bhp.

[E30BeemerLad]

Depends on how these mods compliment each other, but 190-200 would be manageable me thinks

[dazleeds]

yeah id say your looking around 200 with them mods

like the sound of that 200bhp if only my 320can only dream of that power

[M5pilot]

Maybe with a MAF conversion but no way without it.

There is no chip that exists that could get the fueling right with that Cam.

Dale made just under 200bhp with a 284/272 cam and Dbilas Throttle bodies, no 6 branch!


You might get 200bhp in the end but it would be all very top end power.

You thinking of going down this route? Its a good one!

[E30BeemerLad]

right, you're all going to recoil with laughter here, but what is MAF?

I probably know this but can't think what it stands for

[M5pilot]

I wonder what an early 325i sport lump with the follwing would do:

Dbilas Throttle Bodies
Emerald
288/288 cam
Increase compression slightly (standard is 9.7:1)
Ported Head
BMC air filter
Alpina/BTB hybrid 6 branch

Just so that people understand, with Emerald there is no need for a MAF or AFM.

I would have thought the above setup would touch 210bhp if Dale's made 198bhp without head porting and 6 branch and lower compression lump.

mmmm.........I feela dbilas group buy coming on!

[Chaos]

You thinking of going down this route? Its a good one!

just an idea atm sal, wanted to hear other ppls take on it - esp urs

[Donnie]

yeah id say your looking around 200 with them mods

like the sound of that 200bhp if only my 320can only dream of that power

You still want my supercharger ideas when I am finished? I am now looking at well over 200hp out of my 320

[dazleeds]

hiya mate yeah your damn right i do

gotta make a 320i that can fight back one of these days

hows it going mate???any closer?? Daz

[jonb]

i personally think this will only give around 185-190bhp

[Chaos]

i personally think this will only give around 185-190bhp

thats only 14 - 19bhp up on standard.

a gain of only 8 - 11% odd for all those mods?

[Dominitry]

I'll be going down the six branch road when i have the money, along with the usual exhaust etc well, more for the noise

[Chaos]

i just thought this cud be a more practical approach to power than going the e2.7 ta crank route - as that reportedly give u a slow revving engine compared to a normal m20.


didnt alpina an hartge use a diesel crank to avoid such complications ?

[M5pilot]

Bexleys did a MAF conversion on a 2.5 not so long ago.

it had a BTB 6 branch and a 288/288 cam and a Scorpion.

gave 195 bhp.

[Chaos]

Bexleys did a MAF conversion on a 2.5 not so long ago.

it had a BTB 6 branch and a 288/288 cam and a Scorpion.

gave 195 bhp.

its not the most tuneable engine in the world is it

[M5pilot]

Its not no but that extra 25 bhp does feel like alot! Oh, and the noises they make when they are in this state of tune are great.

[Ant]

its a 25 hp gain assuming the claimed figures are correct

most facelift low comp engines struggle to make 160 bhp, theres simply not enough fuel on the std maps, its tuned to run stoich to give the optional cat an easy ride, stoich is vcool put power appears when you alter the AFR to more like 13:1

I've seen 186 bhp on a BBTB and chip alone, the car made 168bhp stock

stuff like this is hard to generalise, its important to have a good mill to start with, only then can comparisons be made

[E30BeemerLad]

can someone please tell me what MAF stands for?

Apologies if people on here have seen me post this before, but if it helps to answer Chaos' query here goes:

My car has a claimed output of 192hp at the flywheel, this was achieved about 4 yrs ago and I have little confidence the car is still producing this.

The car is a 325, '88 E reg

Ported & polished head
Piper fast Road Cam - sorry don't know number but it's not wild
FSE FPR - don't know what pressure it's running as no gauge
Custom chip with remap - sorry no details, just what it says on invoice
K&N Panel filter in standard airbox
Scorpion system on standard manifold
reconditioned injectors

With the above mods running on standard unleaded fuel it produced the above figure.

I would love to see what it could do with BBTB & larger AFM + 6 branch

Want one of those 6 branches - just don't have the pennies!

[M5pilot]

Sit in a 195 bhp e30 and you'll know about it.

Problem is its alot of money.

I'm currently working with Ant to bring the zone some affordable options to the MAF conversion.

Ive already done the manifolds and hopefully another group buy can be arranged.

A MAf convsersion kit could be very cheap, I will have to do alot of the research and development for it but I dont mind as long as there are people here who are interested.

Also trying to find a cam as good as a schrick but at a much lower cost.

As far as I am concerned everything is possible.

I am also considering getting some airboxes made up for a throttle body setup. I can already get throttle bodies at very good prices, just the airbox thats the issue.

[Borderbmw]

Beemerboy, i dont know if this hasd been answered but MAF stands for Mass Air Flow sensor,its just a different type of inlet system than is fitted as standard....there a few of the boys on here that should be able to explain in more detail for you,hope this helps mate

[E30BeemerLad]

BorderBMW - cheers fella

Sal - can you give me any more info about this?

[M5pilot]

Listen guys, again we are headed down the wrong school of thought.

its not all about peak BHP. Normally you get much bigger gains in BHP throughout the rev range. You might gain 25bhp at top end but your likely to have a much better torque curve and a big increase in BHP in the midrange.

Honda S2000's have more peak BHP than a 327i but the 327i has a better spread of power and is hence the faster machine in the real world.

A 200bhp 325i will make a very quick car and one that is probably alot of fun to rev and drive hard.

From what Ive heard, the 2.6's (323i crank + 325i pistons) revved like hell and made the same power as 2.7's. However they were alot more fun to drive.

Early C2 2.5's and H26's were 2.6's and those were loved by their makers more than their 2.7's.

I've heard of 2.5's giving 210bhp and thats alot in an E30. No super car but a hell of alot of fun.

[Chaos]

from what Ive heard, the 2.6's (323i crank + 325i pistons) revved like hell and made the same power as 2.7's. However they were alot more fun to drive.

now theres an idea

[Karan]

id just like to add that u have to ask ureself whether oits worth spending shedloads tuning the m20 for little return..... personally for my Ԛ£2k id rather stick an e36 m3 3.0l lump in.......this is well documented now and WILL give awesome returns with an everyday driveable car which wi;; be a joy to drive daily

[Chaos]

heres what fritzs bits say about the 2.7

Finally the 2.7

The 2.7 ETA engine (block from 5 series economy model) is a long stroke, highÔš'ish torque, low friction loss design exercise made into metal in Munich, to meet the fuel crisis of the late 70Ôš's. The extra capacity (200cc) over the 2.5 is gained through extra crank throw not cylinder diameter, therefore a relatively slow turning engine.

There are ways to wake it up, but we came to the conclusion long ago that its not really worth it.

Some friends in London do a conversion which, we understand, uses the crank from the 2.7 and the block, rods from a 2 ltr or 2.3, and the pistons of a 2.5, with the block decked by some considerable amount to give it some compression.

Beyond that lies full competition tuned no tick over, lumpy at 2000rpm, happy at 3000rpm, going great between 4-7000 rpm all stops out, no prisoners taken, a wheeled rocket.

[Chaos]

id just like to add that u have to ask ureself whether oits worth spending shedloads tuning the m20 for little return..... personally for my Ԛ£2k id rather stick an e36 m3 3.0l lump in.......this is well documented now and WILL give awesome returns with an everyday driveable car which wi;; be a joy to drive daily

does the extra weight upset the handling ?

[Karan]

id just like to add that u have to ask ureself whether oits worth spending shedloads tuning the m20 for little return..... personally for my Ԛ£2k id rather stick an e36 m3 3.0l lump in.......this is well documented now and WILL give awesome returns with an everyday driveable car which wi;; be a joy to drive daily

does the extra weight upset the handling ?

Ian says it doesnt.... he even said its slightly more stable..!!!

[Richy325iTouring]

id just like to add that u have to ask ureself whether oits worth spending shedloads tuning the m20 for little return..... personally for my Ԛ£2k id rather stick an e36 m3 3.0l lump in.......this is well documented now and WILL give awesome returns with an everyday driveable car which wi;; be a joy to drive daily

thats why i want the 2.8 lump its only 1 k heavyer and right mods can see 240 which i be hapy with

keepng the weight balance of the car at same time

[jmc330i]

id just like to add that u have to ask ureself whether oits worth spending shedloads tuning the m20 for little return..... personally for my Ԛ£2k id rather stick an e36 m3 3.0l lump in

That was my exact thinking. Spend Ԛ£2k on the 2.5 and maybe get 200bhp or the M3 lump....

Ok the M3 conversion isnt straight forward, but thats part of the fun, for me anyway. And as Karan said, theres enough info out there now.

[m1key]

Been checking out a few tuning shops and they seem to all go for tripple webbers ?????

Is this just an old school "proven" techniqe or really the best route ??

Engine is a 2.3 with 2.5valves, bad ass cam & carbs. 6 branches and straight through exhaust. claimd 195bhp

[Chaos]

im with richy - M52 2.8 might be a better bet

[MONSPORT42]

MAF Conversion: This is the sytem used on the E36 and does away with the E30's AFM which has a electro mechanical flap which gives a comparatively slow throttle response. The MAF has no flap and relies on a wire sensor to measure air flow. It can be mated to the standard airbox with adaptors but most people use a cone filter, shieded or unshielded. The standard ECU does not however understand the signals sent out from the MAF so it requires a piggy back chip (Unichip) to convert the data. This requires a rolling road re-map. A MAF conversion will not usually give a greater max bhp (in fact mine is slightly lower than with the standard AFM) but when set up properly gives a better power curve and much, much quicker throttle response - it's virtually immediate - and therefore makes for a great drive. It helps to overcome the 'less revvy' criticism of the 2.7 conversion. Having said that, I had originally opted to fit an MBE (stand alone system like Emerald) system which in theory is even better but it wouldn't work with my autobox!

[Chaos]

Been checking out a few tuning shops and they seem to all go for tripple webbers ?????

i had thoseon my old e21 2.7

triple 45's

[m1key]

Yeah are they better than fuel injection ??

For spread of power and fuel consumption ?? ?

m

[Chaos]

low down they spluttered a touch but high up it sang

i got 25mpg on a long run too - at 70 - 80 odd