Whats with the IS and sport?

[Geeman]

So we're all in agreement then... the 320iS is king.

LOL

... of the standard body'd E30 - Forgot to add that bit!

[e30bmlover]

So we're all in agreement then... the 320iS is king.

LOL

... of the standard body'd E30 - Forgot to add that bit!

i agree .. its a sleeper be it with a sport kit or as a standard 4 door. my argument is that a 325i.s is hardly any different to a standard se 325 performance wise, god only knows why they command such a high premium for a few extras

[Bob_S]

personally as the sport was a UK only car it was a fanny's M3.. rhd and had a pretty body or a poor mans M3 whichever way you look at it. I'd have a 320is over a 325i sport

[lance1a]

I'd rather have...a) 320is (higher specific output than an M3) b) 325is (South African 2.7 Alluminium)
c) 325i Sport that was solid under the kit. I have a Dolphin sport here and when I took the kit off , there was hardly any metal under the panels! But there is something about a standard E30 that still appeals.
Don't like M3's rear window/boot treatment. And the wide arches are way too 80's.

But this may be down to the fact that I don't own any of the above (besides a std one) and am just jealous

[bss325i]

remind me exactly what it is you get for your money when comparing a sport to a 'lesser' 325? is it good value for money or a bit of badge snobbery? i wouldnt buy a sport. id take the lesser 325 anyday and upgrade it with the cash saved to a better spec imo than the sport.
and im certainly no cheapskate.

The bottom line is a sport is a more desirable model with a degree of kudos so comands a higher premium, end of. Who care's if you or others would 'take the lesser spec', the fact is they go for more money.

probably about the same amount that cares about your low opinion of other zoners.
like i said before, remind me what it is you get for your money for that extra £5000? i know they go for more money but why? its certainly not £5000's worth of 'best bits as standard' value for money? is it f***.
badge snobbery pure and simple.

My opinion is of some other zoners not all and im not alone in my opinion with regaurds to this! That is beside the point anyway. I am just stating a fact of how the market is for sports at the moment, the top ones go for 6k+ and an average one 4k, its just what the market dictates not badge snobbery. Yes the difference between a normal 325i and a sport isnt huge, just a load of options and that, its the whole package together which makes up a desirable model.

Notice how only non sport owners get on their soap box and yell 'sports are not worth the extra blah blah blah!'
You can all go on about it as much as you all want but the prices will never drop and if anything will rise as all the rotten and raped ones die!

[treeseries]

i apologise for coming in late for this arguement and im not entirly sure my views are correct but i believe its only the 320is thats (supposed to be) a BABY M3 a 318is is just a sports 1800. nothing to do with m3's really and its its 2litre brother that shares a similar engine etc with the m3.not to mention that the 2ltr and the m3 are very close in bhp. anyway on another point the sports are the 1's to have as well all agree its just down to what you want you can neither say 1 sounds better than another or handles better these days since so many of them have been upgraded and it is after all a matter of personal taste. i own a 318is and it handle like shit. i mean stock suspension the lot so its bound to be a bit ropey but if i'd take the time to slam it all coilovers, anti roll bars etc it would be a different car all together.

[e30bmlover]

well it seems '' us non sport owners '' are just stating the facts, the sensible option would be a standard well maintained 2 door 325 se then chuck the sport '' extras '' on if you wish, hell even send away the log book and have sport put on it! you wont tell the difference unless you ring up your local dealer.
before i said ...... i do..... i had a good whack saved( lol only took me a year and a half to save ) enough to buy a nice e30 m3.... once the wedding is over its miser time again!!!!! so its not about the money for me, i done the right thing by my conversion.

[bss325i]

the sensible option would be a standard well maintained 2 door 325 se then chuck the sport '' extras '' on if you wish, hell even send away the log book and have sport put on it! you wont tell the difference unless you ring up your local dealer.

Thats the same thing as me puting all the alpina parts from my rotten C2 2.7 into another car and saying you cant tell the difference, hell even the log book on genuine alpinas doesn't say 'alpina' so would be even easier.

Point being it wouldn't be genuine, cost effective maybe but not the real deal.

Its the same with mk1 and 2 escorts, god knows how many Mexico and Rs2000 replicas there are out there but they are not the genuine article.

[bss325i]

before i said ...... i do..... i had a good whack saved( lol only took me a year and a half to save ) enough to buy a nice e30 m3.... once the wedding is over its miser time again!!!!! so its not about the money for me, i done the right thing by my conversion.

I can empathise with this, i had to sell my low milage well specced alpina sport pack convertible when my baby son arrived.

[boombang]

i own a 318is and it handle like shit.

Sounds like something is up there with the car, my 318is IMHO is up there as the second best drivers car I've ever had the pleasure of driving.

That includes a lot of high end motors, expensive sports cars and heavily modified race/track cars.


Coming from a Peugeot background, the 1.6 vs 1.9 205 Gti (+ Mi16, S16, Gti-6 etc) has been done to death.

The best is the 1600 so long as not the very early engined variants.

It's not the quickest, but not that far behind and a much better car than it should be with a lovely revvy engine and rewarding drive.

I find the 318is in a remarkably similar position - it might be at the low end of the sports models of the E30, but in reality it's not miles off the pace and just as much fun.

[fuzzy]

can someone explain exactly what they mean by 'drivers car' and 'driving experience'? everybody reels of that old line but never actually explains what they mean?

[bss325i]

can someone explain exactly what they mean by 'drivers car' and 'driving experience'? everybody reels of that old line but never actually explains what they mean?

A car you can grab by the scruff of the neck and have some fun?

A car that gives plenty of feedback and is rewarding to drive when you get it right and the circumstances alow it?

A lot of moden cars lack this but then so does a lot of old sh*t to!

[320Touring]

can someone explain exactly what they mean by 'drivers car' and 'driving experience'? everybody reels of that old line but never actually explains what they mean?

drivers car to me = something I ENJOY driving.

as in, I dont give a toss what you think of my car

[maxfield]

A 'drivers car' would to me, be something a driver is in control of.

A car that the driver can feel, the E30 does this. No fancy electronics.

Most modern cars I've driven just have no feel: steering, brakes, clutch etc.

[boombang]

Pretty much as above, the whole rewarding thing gets me.

A mate summed it up well with the phrase "smiles per gallon".

I've clouted about a fair bit in a Vauxhall Monaro (old man has one), Jag XKR, Lexus GS-430, driven the entire VXR range in anger, and yet I'd still rather be in a 140bhp E30.

I've had every Peugeot you can think of too, and my old 309 was almost as good as the E30 - I'd always said that it was a shame the 309 wasn't rwd as it was the only thing that would've made it more fun, and the 318is is just that (the 309 was 800kg, 170bhp, and equipped with a very short gearbox though, 14 second SQM not too shabby for a £3k toy).

[hammoj28]

320touring wrote:

drivers car to me = something I ENJOY driving.

as in, I dont give a toss what you think of my car

Well said Neil.lol

A drivers car to me is something you enjoy driving, every time you get in it you are excited to drive it.

Cant wait to get it on the road etc.

A car that you are comfortable with and can handle. You know how far you can push it and a car thats rewarding to drive.

You can feel everything in and dont feel isolated from the road.

Puts a smile on your face. I doubt il ever change from E30's, im so comfortable with them. i dont care if they aren't that quick anymore. Theres something about them that just does it for me. And even when i buy my next one im going to keep my 318iS. it still feels quick when iv just been in a much faster car.

[hammoj28]

Oh and they look fucking stunning!lol But thats not really anything to do with the driving.

[tomstickland]

i own a 318is and it handle like shit.

Any car can be made to handle badly if with worn tyres, knackered bushes, soggy dampers, worn rack etc.

I love my 318iS. I bought it entirely because it wasn't about power. To me it's about making the most of the power it has and delivering entertainment when driving. I enjoy driving it every time I go out in it. That's what it's about to me. Give me a B road route to North Wales and back and I'm in motoring nirvana. Give me wet roundabouts, wet corners, snow, anything and it'll be a laugh.

I've been down the power route before, and I'd say that power is a very narrow field of pleasure. The fun/pound ratio is much better served by attention to handling and feedback.

Regarding factory sports models. Performance parts are pretty cheap to make and bolt onto a standard car. Practically speaking a clean standard car with the uprated parts fitted will be just as good as the original sports models, but there's always more desirability in the out-of-factory sports models.

[Geeman]

In that case then, my 190k VW Jetta is the best drivers car I've ever owned!

I have to agree... it seems that it's only non-Sport owners that throw their negative opinions around against Sports. How can you say it's not worth the extra premium, when it obviously is... because they are getting bought at these inflated prices

I've had nearly all the E30 models, as I've already said, and I loved both of my Sports - early and late models. I would have another one over a standard 325i any day of the week, even over a Touring. But, I'd much rather have a 320iS though.

Now, if you can't admit that 'special' models command a higher price than their standard counterparts, then you're silly. It happens with EVERY model of car. Get over it.

It's not badge snobbery on the part of the owner... it's envy and jealousy from everyone else!

But, back to the original topic on page 1... 318iS's are much, much better than 316 and 318's and 325i Sports are better than standard 320 and 325's. Simple.

And don't go saying "I can spend £500 and make my standard 325 better than a Sport"... In what way can you? By spending hours crawling around fitting second hand (maybe third, fourth or fifth hand) parts, probably from a scrapper to make your 325i nearly as good as a Sport? I think not. Like it's already been said... it'll NEVER be a Sport, no matter how many parts you throw at it. And the mere fact you're adding parts to your standard 325i indicates that you DO think Sports are better...

If you prefer your standard 325i over a Sport, then fair play to you. Just don't go throwing insults around that are unfounded.

[hammoj28]

I totally agree Geeman. And I have to admit it. If i was ever going to buy a 325i (which im not going to) then i would go for a sport.

[Morat]

but tourings are best!

[bss325i]

In that case then, my 190k VW Jetta is the best drivers car I've ever owned!

I have to agree... it seems that it's only non-Sport owners that throw their negative opinions around against Sports. How can you say it's not worth the extra premium, when it obviously is... because they are getting bought at these inflated prices

I've had nearly all the E30 models, as I've already said, and I loved both of my Sports - early and late models. I would have another one over a standard 325i any day of the week, even over a Touring. But, I'd much rather have a 320iS though.

Now, if you can't admit that 'special' models command a higher price than their standard counterparts, then you're silly. It happens with EVERY model of car. Get over it.

It's not badge snobbery on the part of the owner... it's envy and jealousy from everyone else!

But, back to the original topic on page 1... 318iS's are much, much better than 316 and 318's and 325i Sports are better than standard 320 and 325's. Simple.

And don't go saying "I can spend £500 and make my standard 325 better than a Sport"... In what way can you? By spending hours crawling around fitting second hand (maybe third, fourth or fifth hand) parts, probably from a scrapper to make your 325i nearly as good as a Sport? I think not. Like it's already been said... it'll NEVER be a Sport, no matter how many parts you throw at it. And the mere fact you're adding parts to your standard 325i indicates that you DO think Sports are better...

If you prefer your standard 325i over a Sport, then fair play to you. Just don't go throwing insults around that are unfounded.

Thank you! At last someone that speaks sense!

As a side note my best mate recently got bitten by the e30 bug and decided after owning an e46 328ci to get a tech2 sport. He had a heathy budget to begin with and whilst trawling through all the sh*t we came accross a 320is. The car in question was a zoners (johny320is) and was recently advertised on here and ebay so you all prob know the car. After finding all about what the 320is was all about in general he made an offer on the condtion that it was as described in the add (it had helped that i had seen the car twice at Gaydon) which was accepted so we made the journey to view and collect. It goes without saying that he was not dissapointed and it was as described. At a recent dyno day it was down on power but nothing that cant be solved reasonably easy.
Anyhow, he's had the car a while now and althogh its not used everyday, he's begining to think he should have bought a sport purely because its more practical and something you can just jump in and drive. The 320is is great but all the stuff with s14's apply ie power at the top, highly stung nature etc which is cool but not the best if you just wanna do your stuff and not go for a long blast to get the best from it.

I have to admit when he got it the green eyed monster kicked in a bit but i must admit i'm very happy with what i've got and it suits my needs perfectly.!

[Rosc0PColtrane]

It's an interesting discussion, one I can see both sides of. The sport is a preferred model as it has the extra goodies. I don't think anyone is denying that. I think the question, and it is a question, not a statement or an opinion is that based on market values, is a standard sport really, in value of parts, worth £5k over a non sport equivalent?

On the face of a sport replica being built and still showing change from that £5k difference, it leaves the question: So on what basis do these cars actually command the premium?

No one is disputing the premium or the desirability of the model, just quesitonning the rationale behind forking out for the premium. A plausable suggestion is kudos, otherwise known as badge snobbery; "Oh, it's a sport, it has to be worth more for the badge alone" Especially when viewed along side a replica. There is no tangible difference. They would be identical cars.

So why when sold, will the sport go for a considerably more money than aforementioned replica?

[bss325i]

So why when sold, will the sport go for a considerably more money than aforementioned replica?

You have answered the question yourself. Because its a replica/fake/copy/forgery etc.

Its the same with everything, other cars, especialy clasics (which E30's are heading towards being), art, designer clothes, dare i say money!

Fakes will always be worth less even if they do the same task in every way.
Maybe its the stigma of being a fake but one thing for sure, they will always be worth less.

[SPADGE]

4 pages of going round in cirlces

Sports are regarded as the ultimate e30 to many people as 99% of people do not want to drive a left hooker in the UK hence them catching-up in price with M3 and 320iS.

I wouldn't spend more than 2 or 3 grand on any e30 personaly but whatever floats you boat etc...

[bss325i]

4 pages of going round in cirlces

You can say that again!

People just dont seem to or maybe dont want to understand what is fact!

[oakey]

One thing people seem to forget is that sports were put together by BMW. A 325i with sport goodies put together by Jo Bloggs is going to be less desirable. Surely this is an important part.

[Rosc0PColtrane]

So why when sold, will the sport go for a considerably more money than aforementioned replica?

You have answered the question yourself. Because its a replica/fake/copy/forgery etc.

Its the same with everything, other cars, especialy clasics (which E30's are heading towards being), art, designer clothes, dare i say money!

Fakes will always be worth less even if they do the same task in every way.
Maybe its the stigma of being a fake but one thing for sure, they will always be worth less.

I've asked the question and used the word replica to distinguish between the two cars, which are identical apart from a badge.

So if the badge drives the price, surely that's badge snobbery?

In some circumstances, the same can be applied to designer clothes and 'label whores', surely another colloquialism that can be banded into the same bracket as badge snobs. I'm not looking at either term in a negative light, I wear designer clothes and BMW ownership by definition can imply a certain level of badge snobbery.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I'm just looking for you specifically define what is the determining factor in the differentiation of price, if it's not the badge?

Whether you want to spend £6k on an e30 or £600 on an e30, who cares, it's the holder of the wallets prerogative to do so.

I'm just looking for clarification as to what makes the sport so much better than the replica, if not the badge?

[bss325i]

Belive me its not badge snobbery.

To put it simply is a fake peice of art worth the same as the real thing? No

Is there any badge snobbery in that? No

Its just one is fake and one is real.

[oakey]

A picasso is painted by picasso, I could paint the exact image just as well but it wouldnt be worth as much would it?

[320Touring]

well done lads!

Although as spadge says, its 4 pages of repetiton, at least it hasnt decended into the usual drivel

[csl]

I actually chose a Sport over an M3

The only reasons i can think of why people would want to build a replica Sport is that they "enjoy" carring out the work to the car/want to have the looks and mechanicals of one (and fair play to ya! ) . I still think your gonna have a misson to find a good 325i thats cheap enough to start with (remembering you always get what you pay for,as we all know!) also finding/buying/ transporting some of the Sport parts (that are in a nice condition)will push the price/hassle factor up.

I would prefer to keep a good standard 325i the way BMW made it cos this itself is a rare item.
Whilst respecting other peoples views on this subject,to me theres nothing quite like an original item that has BMW s blessing ............

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Belive me its not badge snobbery, saying "Believe me it's not badge snobbery" doesn't really explain it.

To put it simply is a fake peice of art worth the same as the real thing? No

Is there any badge snobbery in that? No

Its just one is fake and one is real.

Lol, we're talking engineering, not artistic creativity.

Though the difference would be in the artists name making it more desireable, it's label or badge.

In car terms, both are real, both perform identically, it is just the badge that separates the 'wheat from the chaff'.

In other words, badge snobbery, nee badge desirability, to put it more diplomatically?

[Geeman]

Ever seen any of the few M3 replicas...?

Enough said.

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Completely irrelevant. M3 replicas would require structural engineering modifications, which would entail a prohibitive manufacturing cost to produce an identical article.

The point here was a sport replica can be built with considerable cost saving over purchasing a sport to begin with. The question then moved on to why they command the premium, which is believed to be badge snobbery. That was derided as jealousy with no actual tangible evidence to refute the suggestion.