Jai's S50B32 swap thread... MOT Passed!!!!!!

[jaistanley]

Well, after a year of procrastinating, relocating and ballaching; I've made a decent step toward fitting my S50B32 into my 325i.

So far:

I have the engine, gearbox and running gear from an MRoadster. The car was built in 1997. I found the VIN: LB06156. I need to find out the dealer history of it because I have noticed the block is stamped October 2000. Could it have a new engine, a recall or warranty one perhaps? The clocks showed 48,000 miles, nice and low, but if the engine is newer, could it have less miles (or hopefully not more!)? I'm taking part of Ste and Ians group buy on the BTB manifolds so thats (thankfully) covered. The servo/spacer issue has been excellently covered by buster and ol_skool_2002 recently so I intend to do exactly as they have moving the servo over a full 53mm. Hopefully no need to mod the plenum then.

This weekend I finally made a start on getting the engine in. Three of us set about it and removed the 65k M20B25 and auto gearbox, front subframe and suspension in one (hairy, smelly manly) fell swoop. Grr.

[should I keep the M20 and manualise it for the 318iS? It's tired as hell so needs a shiny new lump and I've always loved the idea of a turbo M20 on megasquirt..250 brake perhaps.]

First we disconnected everything and dropped the front struts out. The great thing about a car in this nick is that everything just comes un-done, fuss free. I then doubled two longish straps over and fed the loop through the bottom of the strut towers, poking an axle stand table through each so they couldn't go back through. The straps then came under the chassis legs, avoiding all the body work. These were hooked onto a load leveller so we could use the engine crane to loft the car up. I'd say we got it to about 40 degrees. The back of the car was on its wheels and the bumper was touching the floor! Then we lowered the engine out of the engine bay and slid it over on some 4 by 2's.. .

We took about 4 hours but Sat was really nice in Essex so we chilled out too.

I now the post is worthless without pics but they are on the way.. They are on a friends digital camera in Essex. Waiting on an email.

I'm trying to get hold of the parts I need to physically get the engine into the bay, I think that'll be the real milestone here. Theres so much to do after that I know but it's great to be able to pop the bonnet and see your new engine sat there. I need an M50 525i oil pick up pipe, a new oil pump, a gearbox cross member and the pedal box and plumbing from a manual car. Couple off weekends and I should have the stuff and be putting it in! Yes! Hopefully I can get it done for summer. Gaydon perhaps.

Jai

[appletree]

Sounds like some good progress get some pics up though!!!!

[primeevilcars]

look forwourd to seeing it done

[old_skool]

Hi Jai,

Just read through. Very

I assume you are using the 6 speed box? I'll pull my finger out and get you a copy of the drawings for the servo mods soon too.

I see you listed already having the oil pick up etc. but have you got the sump and dipstick tube as well? What prop are you using?

[buster]

If the car is inside you can fit the engine with out the sump if you really must get it in,i had to do this to mine as i had borrowed the hoist.A week later when the sump arrived i just jacked one side of the engine up and slid the sump in.
Getting it in there is the easy part though
Dameon s servo plate is an excelent idea ,i just wish id done the same.The 25 mm audi master cylinder is ideal,especially as you'll be using the 300 odd mm disks from the m roadster.

6 speed or 5 ?
6 needs a custom mount ,i made mine from cardboard and then copied it to steel.
Don't forget to put the breather into the sump for the inlet plenum,or into the base of the dipstick.Also,it needs an m20 coolant sensor fitting next to the original sender in the head for the temp gauge to work.

Come on,lets see some pics


andy

[jaistanley]

Well, I've not got the pics from my mate yet.. Typical. Normally you can't get him off the phone, now I cant get hold of him. I shall keep hassling!!

Position so far to clarify:

I have:
Gutted 325i (woohoo)
S50B32 with metal parts of engine mounts.
5 speed gearbox (from MRoadster, same as 328i sport and 3.0 litre M3).
M50 525i sump.
M50 525i dipstick and tube (to mod for oil return)

I need (just to physically get engine in, need loads more other stuff still!!):
M50B25/S50B30 oil pump
M50 525i oil pick-up pipe
M535i (that's right yea? Need to check the other threads) engine mount rubbers
E30 325i manual gearbox cross member
E36M3 gearbox mount rubbers
Sump gaskets etc.

What do you guys suggest I do in the engine bay before I put the engine in? Hopefully the manifold will be ready soon so I might be putting that in at the same time (hopefully making it less of an ordeal). I'm going to give it a damn good clean so it's sparkly. Want to fit the M3 bulkhead trim panel and get a 4 pot wiring cover. Does the bulkhead plastic trim panel need to go in before the engine for ease?

I am fitting the MRoadster steering rack (I would use a 1.9 Z3 one but this is what came with the car and will be quick enough for now) and hopefully the linkage/adaptor is being machined by Ste's guy soon. Is it advisable to fit the rack first, I assume it is? I have a set of Ians' pipes too so this part should be easy.

I have some photos of the car it's going into and the wrecked MRoadster it's coming out of.. (I shall post soon, I'm a work and only Zoning whilst my computer is rendering!).

[jmc330i]

E36M3 gearbox mount rubbers

There is a thread on here somewhere about using 2 E21 rubber gearbox mounts. I cant remember which E21, but I think the 6pot.
Apparently they are the same height as the E30/E36 ones, but are stronger because the E21 only used one rubber mount.

[jaistanley]

Think I'll go for standard..

The bushes do very little to retard the twisting forces of the drivetrain, they are there to support the gearbox. For reasons of NVH the equivalent spring constant and the loss angle of the rubber's hysteriecal damping have been chosen to reduce a vibration of 'x' in a system with a resonant frequency of 'y' and a mass of 'z'.

Basically the mounts are there to support vertically and reduce the transmission of vibration. Going for the mounts from a car with a similar weight engine and gearbox (and chassis) gives you a better chance of reducing the peaks in noise due to the resonance of the system and it's other modes of vibration.

There... I did learn something in my transmissability and NVH uni modules.

I'd go for the engine mounts from an E36 M3 evo too for the same reason but EVERBODY uses the M535i ones, I can only assume this is because they allow the engine in the right place and mount to bothe the E30 and E36 stuff (and are strong). It means I can partake in the group buy of the manifolds too without any worry of things not fitting. To be honest, it's a shame. From what I can tell the mounts from the M535i are all rubber and the mounts from the E36 are definately hydro-rubber ones. These have much better damping characteristic (loss angle is much greater than is possible with rubber alone).

Jai

[jason90m]

greeting from the other side of the pond. ive done a few m50 conversions, but this is my first euro s50.

What do you guys suggest I do in the engine bay before I put the engine in? Hopefully the manifold will be ready soon so I might be putting that in at the same time (hopefully making it less of an ordeal).

i used the stock euro headers, no spacers on the 5er engine mounts. this required notching (plasma cut / weld) the front subframe. also, with the stock euro headers, you will need to use the "treehouse" control arm bushings for the headers to fit. i would also recommend removing the sound insulation in the tunnel and checking for rust. rust commonly occures in the trans tunnel right where it meets the firewall. also bending the heater core aluminum pipes (to miss the plentum) will be much easier now.

.....Dameon s servo plate is an excelent idea ,i just wish id done the same.The 25 mm audi master cylinder is ideal,especially as you'll be using the 300 odd mm disks from the m roadster..andy

i would really like some additional info on this....i have tried the tii servo, swift servo (modified to fit the 25mm m3 one) and the stock swift servo. any other alternates would be greatly appreciated.

I'd go for the engine mounts from an E36 M3 evo too for the same reason but EVERBODY uses the M535i ones, I can only assume this is because they allow the engine in the right place and mount to bothe the E30 and E36 stuff (and are strong). It means I can partake in the group buy of the manifolds too without any worry of things not fitting. To be honest, it's a shame. From what I can tell the mounts from the M535i are all rubber and the mounts from the E36 are definately hydro-rubber ones. These have much better damping characteristic (loss angle is much greater than is possible with rubber alone).
Jai

ireland engineering (here in the us) has made some polyurethane m5 mounts. i have always used the stock ones (look like green bell peppers), but, i know jeff has made them due to demand.

cheers, jason

[ian332isport]

I'd go for the engine mounts from an E36 M3 evo too for the same reason but EVERBODY uses the M535i ones, I can only assume this is because they allow the engine in the right place and mount to bothe the E30 and E36 stuff (and are strong).

Jai,

You need to make sure the M535i mounts are the same as the E28 M5, as this is what most people use, and what the BTB manifolds will be built around.

The reason E36 M3 mounts were not used, is the fact they don't fit. If you put them in the outer set of subframe holes, they hit the chassis rail.

Ian.

[old_skool]

^^ As Ian said, the engine mounts are E28 M5 Jai. I have a photo of the new ones here somewhere if that would be of use.

Don't forget to add to your list the bits from RS that you'll need. Pin terminals etc for the C101 etc. Also E36 M3 Radiator, MKII Golf brake servo, Aftermarket brake fluid reservoir. Also, different fan belt as you'll be loosing the emissions pump and possibly air con compressor?

Did you have any luck with the Audi master cylinder from the ebay guy?

What do you guys suggest I do in the engine bay before I put the engine in? Hopefully the manifold will be ready soon so I might be putting that in at the same time (hopefully making it less of an ordeal). I'm going to give it a damn good clean so it's sparkly. Want to fit the M3 bulkhead trim panel and get a 4 pot wiring cover. Does the bulkhead plastic trim panel need to go in before the engine for ease?

I would give the whole thing a good going over with a steam cleaner or some Jizer degreaser. Maybe rid the engine bay of the air box mounts too. I should imagine that the bulkhead plastic trim can be fitted easily with the engine in place but I wait to be corrected.

I plan to build the whole engine and gearbox together, fully fitted with ancillaries onto the engine subframe complete with the suspension all mounted onto a unistrut trolley. Then lift the bare shell on top of it and bolt it up. Hopefully then I won't scratch the paint!

Don't forget that you'll need to shorten the heater matrix pipes where they come into the engine bay and get some 19mm ID hoses with a tight 90 degree elbow shoved over and through the grommet into the passenger compartment. Then use a jubilee clip on them inside the car. Otherwise the whole lot will foul the engine. I only mention it now as it would be a pain to cut when the engines going in. I will also add that it was Ian that gave me that tip and I haven't got that far yet myself

Only other thing to think of is the blanking plate and gasket for the emissions pump. Again, Ian.

When Mr. Haynes talks, I listen




Where are those pics!!!

[old_skool]

OOh, and the prop. You'll definitely need a prop too...

[buster]

Some good points the Dameon ,most of which i'd forgotten myself.But i did manage all of the above with the engine in place but agree that it would be far easier with it out.

[jaistanley]

Doh! I was mixing up the M535i mounts and the M5 mounts… Schoolboy error!

I have a massive long list of parts I still need for the conversion.. The ones listed above are to get the engine sat in the bay.

Engine mounts: I had a feeling it was to do with the geometry, the M5 mounts are small enough to fit then. Need to have (yet another) re-read of the M50 and S50 threads before making a list of parts to go to BMW for, that was always the plan. (We/I could come up with some sort of BOM/conversion guide to PDF for the zone?).

For a prop I need an E30M3 one from what I can gather. I've also heard tale the E36 328i ones can be used with a new centre bearing. I have the damaged prop from the Roadster. It looks the right length etc but with the wrong centre support. From what I can gather the Roadster parts are raided from E36 parts bins, and the prop is badged up an E36 part. I assume it's the same as the 328 one so lets hope they fit. Are 328 props cheap? How much should I look to pay? M3 ones are about £100 so if I could get the 328i one for £50 and fit the centre bearing and support it should owe me about £75 (and likely be in better condition cos it's newer and has a new centre bearing?)

I had actually forgotten about the mods to the heater matrix pipes, I'd better fire up the old threads and re-read, I first did a year ago when I saw the engine on ebay!

At last I have some pictures!








The guys in the pics are my mates that helped out.. Cheers Shaun and Joey.

I'll post again tomorrow.. Tired now.

Jai

[buster]

good work Jai,never seen it done like that before.I lifted mine out in one go,but straight out the top.
Keep the updates coming.

[jmc330i]

I have the damaged prop from the Roadster. It looks the right length etc but with the wrong centre support. From what I can gather the Roadster parts are raided from E36 parts bins, and the prop is badged up an E36 part. I assume it's the same as the 328 one so lets hope they fit.

Prop lengths from the ETK...
E36 M3 5spd - 1469mm
E36 328i - 1492mm
Z3 MRoadster - 1240mm


I cant find the length of the E30 M3 prop, but I think its around the 1490mm mark (as the later E30 325i). Ive had both the E30 M3 and E30 325i props side by side and they looked all but the same length, but I didnt measure the M3 prop.

[ian332isport]

Ive had both the E30 M3 and E30 325i props side by side and they looked all but the same length

They probably are. The difference on the M3 prop is the size of the front flange. You need the larger M3 flange to fit the back of the E36 box.

[jaistanley]

Hopefully the 328i one should fit then.. Or E30 M3 obviously.

I'm surprised the 328i and 3.0 M3 props aren't the same size.. Aren't they supposed to use the same gearbox? Do they have the UJ style diff input then? I know the 3.2 diff does as a friend fitted one to his E36 and had to change the gearbox to the 6 speed unit but I assumed the 3.0 had a similar diff set up to the 325i (std shape E36 diff and same components/driveshafts as the 325i, unlike the 3.2).

The same friend tells me that the output on the E36 325i gearbox is the smaller type guibo and the M3 prop he has is the larger type. Obviously we'd need the larger type.

Does anyone have an E30M3 prop to measure? We know they fit so will give us a datum.

I'm stil agonising as to whether or not to fit the titanium con rod bolts whilst I'm there. As far as I can tell the VANOS isn't likely to fail catastrophically; unless you neglect them, but the rod bolts may (in the event of an over-rev). Trouble is it's £250 extra when I'm getting lower on funds. Hmm..

I think I shall be spending this weekend on the swap-parts hunt....

Yey.

Jai

[Jhonno]

they shared the gearbox for certain years.. iirc the 328i came with 2 different boxes

[jmc330i]

Hopefully the 328i one should fit then.. Or E30 M3 obviously.

Only the front half of the 328i prop will fit as I understand it, thats why it needs fitting to an E30 rear section.

As for the different length props between the E36 M3 and 328i, could it be down to the diff?? Maybe the M3 has a larger diff and so needs a shorter prop?? The ETK only lists 1 prop for the 328i, so both the 328i boxes should be the same size.

[ChrisBarns]

not sure if this isnt a little off thread but... i think z3s are on the comact floor plan which is e30 at the rear. Defo the e30 based rear end was source of much scorn from the press when z3s were availiable new. don't know why - seems to work ok to me and these are the same people who regularly vote e30 m3s as to 10 best handling cars ever.

hope if goes well regardless!

[old_skool]

Does anyone have an E30M3 prop to measure? We know they fit so will give us a datum

Jai, I have one here. I'll take some pics tomorrow and post the dimensions onto the thread.

Nice write up so far. Loving the pics too

Did you get that brake master cylinder?

[jaistanley]

After your email I heard nothing about it...

Do you have an address or link?

Spot on for the prop info...

Jai

[DanThe]

Jai, I got a place in Wolves to moddify my propshaft and re-ballance, cost me £55.

Much more pocket friendly than the M3 prop route

[old_skool]

OK,

Sorry for the delay but here is the info on the E30 M3 prop:



Front of prop on left (I know. Just wanted to avoid any confusion)

Front of prop:



To the centre bearing: 630mm



FInally the rear of the prop: 1460mm



Sorry the pics are a little dull. I was having problmes with getting the flash flaring off the tape measure.

This is the front of the prop in more detail. Guibo bush still fitted:







Hope that helps Jai

[Jhonno]

i'll have to dig my reciept out but iirc use an e36 m3 guibo as its significantly bigger

[old_skool]

i'll have to dig my reciept out but iirc use an e36 m3 guibo as its significantly bigger

I've got the E36 M3 guibo still fitted on the gearbox and it's the same size as the E30 M3 guibo. I'd have thought that the E36 item would be heavier duty but they look the same.

Maybe a look at the ETK would solve it

[DanThe]

The rubber on the back of my 2004 6 speed box is the same size as the E30 M3, part No's are the same

Also the same part is used on the new E92 coupe

About the gearbox mounts, while I was doing my conversion I was finding a load of threads (mainly U.S. threads) about the so called "money shift" which happens when down changing from 5th to 4th 'in a hurry', due to worn or weak engine/gearbox mounts 2nd gear can actually be engaged and when the clutch is dropped and the accelerator floored your engines internals turn into a big mess as the cam chain slips the sprockets

I only know of one car/engine (E36) that this has happened on local to me but either way I want to avoid it as much as possible

[jaistanley]

Cheers for that guys.

Going to keep a keen eye peeled for an E30M3 breaking. I need a dual speed aircon fan (I really want to use this for the cooling as I'd like to use as many oem parts as possible), a prop and a few other bits and bobs such as wiring and a set of front struts (not important but handy for my 318is) etc. (if anyone thinks of anything, let me know).

For the reverse light, am I right in thinking that becasue the car was originally an auto, the wiring for the reverse light will be in with the engine loom already? The S50 one seems to be so it should just be a matter of re-aligning the pins in the C101, correct? Whilst on the subject, for those of us with S50 engines and no M3 clocks, I have considered using the oil temp guage from the MZRoadster. It should be calibrated for the S50 sensor and run off the same wiring. Will see if I can get one (mine was removed from damaged car before I got to it, along with the f***ing radiator).

Oh well, back to work before someone realises I'm sposed to be drawing, not typing!

Jai

[old_skool]

Cheers for that guys.

Going to keep a keen eye peeled for an E30M3 breaking. I need a dual speed aircon fan (I really want to use this for the cooling as I'd like to use as many oem parts as possible), a prop and a few other bits and bobs such as wiring and a set of front struts (not important but handy for my 318is) etc. (if anyone thinks of anything, let me know).

For the reverse light, am I right in thinking that becasue the car was originally an auto, the wiring for the reverse light will be in with the engine loom already? The S50 one seems to be so it should just be a matter of re-aligning the pins in the C101, correct? Whilst on the subject, for those of us with S50 engines and no M3 clocks, I have considered using the oil temp guage from the MZRoadster. It should be calibrated for the S50 sensor and run off the same wiring. Will see if I can get one (mine was removed from damaged car before I got to it, along with the f***ing radiator).

Oh well, back to work before someone realises I'm sposed to be drawing, not typing!

Jai

Jai,

I have a set of good 325 front struts you can have. I also may have a spare OEM air con fan too.

I can't help on the wiring - what I don't know about vehicle wiring could fill a warehouse. However if you had a warehouse I could wire it up as I'm NICEIC registered

I'll keep a look out for a prop for you as well.

P.s. will email you that link for the AUDI master cylinder seller on ebay.

[Jhonno]

i'll have to dig my reciept out but iirc use an e36 m3 guibo as its significantly bigger

I've got the E36 M3 guibo still fitted on the gearbox and it's the same size as the E30 M3 guibo. I'd have thought that the E36 item would be heavier duty but they look the same.

Maybe a look at the ETK would solve it

ok it must be an M5 one then.. I took a pic of the 2 n the difference was massive, however i think the pic is on my laptop which isnt working atm

[jaistanley]

Thanks Old_skool... I dont need the 325 struts as I currently have M3 stuff fitted to the 318is. I shall be using the M3 front struts from that on the silver 325i (the 332iS I might christen it ), along with the MZRoadster stuf on the rear. That'll leave me with an iS with M3 rear and no front suspension. What I might do is fit all of the running gear straight from the 325i so I have a working car.

I fact, thinking about the state of the red car these days, I might go home for the long Easter weekend (plus Wed and Thur that I've booked off) and fit the entire front 325i subframe that you can see in the pictures; engine and all

Needs a kick up the arse.

Jai

[Jhonno]

remember z3 stuff uses a high offset n m3 low if your mixin and matching

[jaistanley]

Yea, using spacers behind the E36 M3 evo disks so the resulting offset on the front will be the same as the rear, e36.

The E36 calipers bolt on.

Apparently the BBS 16" M3 wheels go over the 315mm single piston brakes, the offest pushing them out. If I could find somewhere that could machine the centre of the wheels to change the offset, I'd REALLY like a set. It'd look more factory and probably ride better than the 17" BBS 328i sport wheels I'm fitting. A bit like a set of sport 15"s on a standardish 325i se but slightly bigger and more aggressive.

What front splitter is that Jhonno? I'm fitting a satin black iS one but like the deeper look of yours.

Jai

[oze30]

Did bmw make a dual speed fan? My aircon fan manages to keep the engine cool at high temp (3/4 down to half) but now I've had to plumb the temp switch into the top of the thermostat and it comes on at a bit over halfway, then off at half.