mega squirt on the IS

[appletree]

i was thinking about getting my ECU remapped on the rollers but then i thought for the price would it be worth going all the way and getting a proper set up like the mega squirt and getting rid of the AFM, As every one keeps saying about the AFM zapping the power from the E30.

Could any one give me a rough price for a set up and what any advantages might be besides a power increase?

realisticaly what type of power gain do you think i might expect on the IS

[ShepsEvo3]

You can get lots more power from the IS just by re-mapping. If you do a search, Tim has done the mega-squirt conversion on his car, but he has modded it to a 2ltr, etc. If you have access to a turbo boost gauge hook it upto your inlet manifold (T it off the FPR) and measure the pressure/vacuum in the manifold at full throttle at near to maximum revs. If it shoes a vacuum, and I mean more than slight, then it would be worth doing. If the vacuum is only slight, then the AFM is not creating a restriction and the engine is getting all the air it needs.

I have proved this on a 325i Sport where the owner wanted to do a MAF conversion, it never gave anymore power than it did when mapped properly with the AFM.

Best chip in my opinion is the Dastek Unichip, but it isn't cheap and you are relying on a Unichip dealer to map it properly. The Uni-Q is similarly priced again from Dastek and it can run the engine without the AFM too, but you would have to change the TPS for a Throttle Pot or use a MAP sensor instead. I have the Uni-Q fitted to my Evo2 and I could not believe the difference it made to it.

If you do want to go for the Mega Squirt, talk to the guru "Ant" as he knows all there is to know about this system.

HTH

[appletree]

Cheers fella some usefull advice there. al try that with the boost gauge, good thinking

[tim_s]

Ԛ£200+ for the unit and to have pwm idle and coil drivers installed. Ԛ£150 for wideband lambda so you can tune it. month of sundays (bloody long time) mapping it, and thats about it. Obviously you're looking at a lot more if you want to pay someone to do all the work.

tweaking fuel alone we got 5rwhp ish on sheps' rollers, but bare in mind it takes a lot of hours to get the car mapped well. the AFM doesn't really affect peak power at all on a standard car as paul and I proved on the rollers, but getting rid improves throttle response etc.
i personally also think a piggyback is the way to go on a standardish car, talk to shepsevo3 about a dastek one! or if you want one you can tweak yourself then you want a perfect power job.

[appletree]

when you say tweak it your self how do you mean?

is it acase of playing about with a lap top and trying different settings with different runs?

i havent got any experience in setting this kind of thing up but i would love to learn.

also tim_s your prodject is mint! it makes me want to do something like that. Going in to the unknown if you know what i mean and being different?

[ShepsEvo3]

when you say tweak it your self how do you mean?

is it acase of playing about with a lap top and trying different settings with different runs?

i havent got any experience in setting this kind of thing up but i would love to learn.

To be honest, if you don't have the experiance, its dangerous!
The Perfect Power can be played with by the owner, but in my opinion, you will not get the best without mapping on the rollers. Mapping on the rollers means you have the power output live infront of your very eyes, and you knwo you have the very best out of your engine. You could have 180 BHP at 7000RPM with 32 degrees advance say, but you will still have 180 BHP at 7000 RPM with 38 degrees advance ignition, but this would be too far advance and maynot be enough to HEAR detonation, but you would be doing damage. Also you could have 175 BHP at 7000 with 40 degrees and still not hear detonation (if you are hard of hearing) on the road, but you wouldn't feel 5 BHP loss in my opinion.

The best is Unichip. Also if you are limited on budget, you can buy one of the zone chips which I understand are good, that is just a removal of your original chip, plug in the new and away you go. Or ChippedUK also do some good chips, but I am still yet to do a comparison on one of his.

Good Luck.

[MikeeMiracle]

To be honest, if you don't have the experiance, its dangerous!

Ditto, we had a few people on the Civic Type-R forum fook up their engines by trying to "optimise" their own settings without really understanding what they were doing.

[ShepsEvo3]

To be honest, if you don't have the experiance, its dangerous!

Ditto, we had a few people on the Civic Type-R forum fook up their engines by trying to "optimise" their own settings without really understanding what they were doing.

I did a dyno day a couple of years back with some from there, some of them were pinking, they all wanted 2 runs, and I couldn't be happier when the day was over.....never again!!!!

[tim_s]

no, as paul says, tweaking is best left well alone unless you have a wideband lambda and a good idea of what you're doing. even then you can't beat the r/r esp for timing tweaks. good thing with the perfect power is that with no knowledge of mapping etc you can allegedly get it to run a MAF or MAP sensor, as it can learn - you hook up the AFM and MAF together to start with, drive the car until the unit is satisfied, then remove the AFM and it has learnt the differences in voltages between the two and sends the correct reading on to the original ECU. very clever indeed!

[bigj]

Hi mate had a remap today @ chipped uk 163bhp/148.2lb/ft this was up from 118hp .

was surprised it was so low to start with. Thought about ms for mine to get rid of afm
but it looked to tech for me , a Bbtb improved the throttle response and cured the flat spot I had


good luck

Jason

[appletree]

was that a flat spot at 2.5k-3k rpm?

if you dont mind me asking how much did you pay?

were is chipped UK?

did they give you a at the wheels power figure?

bet the car feels loads better now!

[protomor]

I have a chipped 325i and before alot of tuning i did about 145bhp. Im supposedly getting 150ish after i tweaked a bunch and got new ignition parts. the MS is good if you want to do a turbo or want to play with settings. Realistically, if you want to stay NA and get power, get a chip. If you want to turbo/super get the MS. Im still putting together my MS setup with the stock O2 sensor and Im probably going to be doing alot of dyno tuning and getting a wide band.

[Ant]

good thing with the perfect power is that with no knowledge of mapping etc you can allegedly get it to run a MAF or MAP sensor, as it can learn - you hook up the AFM and MAF together to start with, drive the car until the unit is satisfied, then remove the AFM and it has learnt the differences in voltages between the two and sends the correct reading on to the original ECU. very clever indeed!

Indeed clever Tim, but then all you have is a MAF sending the same output data to the ECU as the AFM did, you've still got to effectively tune the car still, as the input/output will be the same as stock, MAF will/can cause issues with accel tuning too, hence most manufacturers use throttle position data in adition, can the PP unit run a true TPS in addition to the MAF , or is it either/or ?

[tim_s]

the PP unit does not run TPS afaik. i know of two people using these units on M42s, one running MAF, one MAP, I've never heard of any problems with accel tuning. I also know of a chap who makes a little signal convertor box for the M42 to a ford MAF and he's not had any issues with accel tuning either. Why is it that you think there would be given that the units are both outputting the same data to the orig ECU?

I'll ask one of the chaps who's running it how he's getting on. the unit can alter the sparks too, it really is quite clever.
I've only ever seen this unit in the flesh on veedubs, C+R up in nottingham used to use them.
With BMW doing a MAF for the motronic 1.7 to replace the old flappies, I'd be quite surprised if there were accel tuning issues.

and yeah sure you still need to tune the car, its still cool though and a hell of a lot simpler than something like MS!

[Demlotcrew]

How can you say unichip is the best? I think its far from it!

Andrew

[ShepsEvo3]

How can you say unichip is the best? I think its far from it!

Andrew

Andrew, you obviously had a bad experiance from it? I have fitted many over the last 3 to 4 years. In my opinion if you want to OPTIMISE your engines performance with the fixtures and fittings you have fitted to the engine, then this is the ONLY way to be able to do it and ENSURE you have achieved the OPTIMUM.

I and my customers have been impressed with every installation I have completed and mapped myself. I have however had to re-map Unichips which other's have fitted only to find someone has just inputted a number of "2" or "3" throughout the range. This is not acceptable and will not optimise the performance of the engine. A PROPPER mapping session will.

I have not had another chip give more power than the Unichip can on any individual car. But this is my experiance, not anyone elses. I can only speak from my own.

You must ensure that it is fitted correctly and mapped correctly to get the very best results from it.

HTH.

EDIT: I have no experiance with Perfect Power chips, although I understand that they are very similar to the Unichip and Uni-Q chips.

[tim_s]

I think with mapping fuel injection, the product isn't necessarily as important as the person mapping it. Paul clearly and from personal experience knows exactly what he is doing, and comes highly recomended. I wouldn't hesitate to have a unichip mapped by him.
Also regardless of how you feel about the unichip (I'm not its biggest fan, mainly because I like something I can hook up to my laptop), I know the dastek unichip is reliable and effective, I've got a close friend who ran a unichip for a few years in a veedub and had loads of success with it, it was mapped by Vince at stealth racing. How did karan get on with GUG, that had a unichip and MAF conversion didnt it?
btw paul, was near you yesterday (had to go to volksmania in old sodbury), so popped in to say hello and discuss mine, but I gather you're on hols! will pop by to have a chat when you're back.

[Gunni]

PP SMT is pretty clever,

What it does and helps you with are indeed those MAF and MAP swaps, I have already done one, but I never pulled the plug on the AFM in time as the car went of road for a while, but itԚ´s up for a awaking soon and then I will just unlugg the AFM from the start,

If you have a M20 and AFM, the SMT will have 3 load inputs, your AFM signal and a TPS (custom fitted opviously) signal along with the rpms,
thus even without any tuning you have got 3d mapping instead of the stock 2d
now you may have the same AFM voltage coming from in, but since you now have a TPS signal you can add fuel with more throttle opening, i.e the air flow is the same (i.e same AFM/MAP/MAF voltage) but the TPS and SMT will still richen the mixture,

So with the SMT you are able to get variable mixture from the load device, TPS and rpms instead of load device and rpms before, now that is gain option number one,

#2 is that you can now adjust timing in the same fashion, i.e even if the load is the same you can advance the timing for more power per that load,

When your done mapping a MAP sensor trough the SMT and it outputs just about the same as the AFM before it, you can now tune it just like you would a standalone, adding fuel or removing it,
The SMT is amazing product if used in the correct situation,

To fit a MAP sensor to a AFM car, all is needed is a simple 2d map really i.e input is changed based on load. as whenever there where 4volts before you may need the ECU to see 5volts, thus itԚ´s always the same changes are the same voltages
for instance

MAP 0-0.5v = AFM 0-0.4volt
MAP 0.6-1v = AFM 0.5-1.2volt
and so on..
but there can be so much else done when using a 3d map and specifically with a TPS for load, as itԚ´s driver initiated, and not the load the engine sees, but the results you want from the current load,

There is no unit that will reach more power then the other one, especially piggybacks, as they are both adjusting the ecu signals anyway, giving the ecu 5volts from the load signal will result in X from the injectors and timing,
unichip or SMT it doesnԚ´t matter and claiming so is just cheap.
tough I do agree a real mapping is needed to find the max power,

[M5pilot]

when you say tweak it your self how do you mean?

is it acase of playing about with a lap top and trying different settings with different runs?

i havent got any experience in setting this kind of thing up but i would love to learn.

To be honest, if you don't have the experiance, its dangerous!
The Perfect Power can be played with by the owner, but in my opinion, you will not get the best without mapping on the rollers. Mapping on the rollers means you have the power output live infront of your very eyes, and you knwo you have the very best out of your engine. You could have 180 BHP at 7000RPM with 32 degrees advance say, but you will still have 180 BHP at 7000 RPM with 38 degrees advance ignition, but this would be too far advance and maynot be enough to HEAR detonation, but you would be doing damage. Also you could have 175 BHP at 7000 with 40 degrees and still not hear detonation (if you are hard of hearing) on the road, but you wouldn't feel 5 BHP loss in my opinion.

The best is Unichip. Also if you are limited on budget, you can buy one of the zone chips which I understand are good, that is just a removal of your original chip, plug in the new and away you go. Or *plug* also do some good chips, but I am still yet to do a comparison on one of his.

Good Luck.

At last someone who knows their stuff and knows how to explain why tuning without a rolling road is so potentially dangerous.

This is the exact reason I took my 3.8 to have a unichip fitted, the person doing the mapping can see live data. They can protect the engine by not having too much advance which gives no more power.
On my 3.8, the advance at which peak power was made was noted and advance was backed off slightly at that point just to be on the safe side.
Better to have 2-3bhp less than have an engine running on the limit and avoiding lots of tears when it blows up.

There is nothing wrong with Unichip, it seems to be working very well on thousands of cars including my M5.


Sal

[Demlotcrew]

Sal you only need a RR to hold the speed for WOT runs in gear (called a pegable RR) all other mapping can be done on the road with two people.

Andrew

[M5pilot]

I know what your saying dude but that ability to see live output readings is a very handy tool. It can be the difference between a good map and a brilliant one. It can also be the difference between a safe setup and one that is really too close to the limit.

[ShepsEvo3]

I know what your saying dude but that ability to see live output readings is a very handy tool. It can be the difference between a good map and a brilliant one. It can also be the difference between a safe setup and one that is really too close to the limit.

I totally agree. But unfortunately you cannot help those who want to do it themselves and for the cost of a mapping session (which can also show up faults too) it can be a small price to pay in relation to burnt out valves, pistons or "accidents" caused on the road.

It also worries me about some of the equipment used by some of these people. Lots of money is spent by us as a garage ensuring all our equipment is calibrated and accurate at all times.

Dastek and Perfect Tune will not allow you to become a dealer for thier products unless you have a rolling road. Unsure about Perfect Tune, but Dastek stipulates certain types of dyno too. Dastek does not offer the software to anyone else but these dealers....because of the "tuning on the road" issues I and M5pilot have raised.

But at the end of the day, if you own the car its your decision. Although I do obviously have my reservations, I do respect your views and decisions too.

Also at Gunni - In MY experiance, I have not got better results with anything else other than the Unichip. I have no experiance with the SMT, but cannot see why it can't do the same. As I have no experiance with any of Perfect Power's products I cannot comment on it. Unichip is a superb bit of kit, the new Uni-Q is even better. I cannot recommend anything else. But obviously there are a couple of applications which the Unichip cannot cater for and a flash of the eprom is the only way to extract more power. But this is rare.

[appletree]

So would you be able to re-map my car for me using a unichip on your rollers??

If so could you PM me with an "all in " price? chip, r/r session and any thing else you need?

cheers, Matt.

[Andyboy]

How can you say unichip is the best? I think its far from it!

Andrew

As much as it pains me I have to agree. Unichip is okayish but it was designed for systems like Ford EEC (Focus/Mondeo with the Zetec) which was very difficult - if not impossible - to remap. Why on earth would anyone add a piggy back system to Motronic, one of the most versatile and simple engine managament systems ever? When you can get a nice fat gain just from setting it up, you're effectively pissing in the wind. It's fashionable to knock the poor old AFM but it's not that bad.

Don't piss about with Unichip - it's okay for a Focus with big cams. Use MS with a MAF if you want to after you've gone the chipped ECU route but the M42 is crying out for throttle bodies - I reckon 190-200 bhp isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Don't forget (if you didn't already know) that the M42 ultimately gave more power than the S14 as a race engine.

As for unichipping a 3.8 M5 - well, it's your money. BMW and Bosch clearly don't know very much. My old man (AmD) had a lowish opinion of Unichip but thinks highly of MegaSquirt as an inexpensve and pretty elegant little system that works well. God, 10 years ago he was fitting air mass meters to Motronic 911's without recourse to some plastic thing taped to the ECU!
What a 3.8 M5 needs is a decent, experienced dyno operator (of which trhere are surprisingly few about) to set it up properly. You can only give an engine optimum fuelling and timing for maximum power everywhere - perfectly achievable with Motronic.

[appletree]

so was there an M42 race angine then??? an if so, why?

IF there was i would be realy intrested to find out more about it if any of you have any more info!

[maxfield]

It was an S42 used in the E36 2.0l. I would like to find out more on the engine but i can't seem to find anything on it apart from it was 308hp which aint as much as a race S14 is this correct?

[appletree]

So was it an agine out of a road car that had been modded or a designed from scratch race engine??

[tim_s]

the S42 is based on the M42 but really shares very little with it. It does (obviously) have the same bare head and block, but just about everything else is different - bore/stroke/valve size/intake/exhaust/fuelling/box you name it, pretty much every component is different from yours i'm afraid appletree. It sits differently in the engine bay too, has 8 injectors etc etc, had a huge high CR and revved very high.
The S42 made more power than the S14 in 2l form maxfield, it was also the replacement for the S14.
ask away if you have qs, I know a fair bit about these.

[appletree]

Have you got any info about the angine as in sides of things, specs , numbers stuff? i could read?

[Dan318-is]

i foudn a bit on the s42 once, an it was pure mentalist. 308 cams iirc? there was a german site i found in the dead of nite it had pics and all! dry sumped the lot, eat that 6 pot loosers!

[appletree]

Thats the type of info am after! can you remeber what it was you searched under??

[tim_s]

what is it you want to know appletree? its a race engine with lots of very serious parts on it, specs are pretty much as you'd imagine. I have some pics and vids of one somewhere.

[Dan318-is]

[appletree]

After any info on the history of the engine and the develpoment realy.

[maxfield]

I know it's alot more expensive to build than an S14 and the S14s very expensive. I would like to know more about the engine to

Cam specs.
valve sizes.
inlet size port size.
exhaust port size.
compression ratio.
TBs size.
Etc wonder how it compares to a race S14.