Oh dear, TPS and water - update Thursday PM

[baurscoot]

So I put the 320 Baur Auto through it's MOT this week, failed on a bulging brake hose and a farting exhaust, replaced part and gun gummed the pinhole and picked up my shiny new MOT certificate that was swiftly folllowed by 6 months of road tax.

Everything was peachy and I was enjoying the fun of driving a proper car for once having spent the winter driving round in a ropey old truck (Ssangyong Musso) and an Iveco Daily (horrors). Anyroad, decided to pick up some more dog food and collect the take away buna last night and on the way home the car developed some running issues. What had been a lumpy idle has turned into missfire hell throughout the rev range with stalling at speed, restarting and lurching, fun and games in an auto in traffic.

So this morning I have been having a lurk under the bonnet to diagnose the uneven running. Obviously, bering the day after I put a convertible on the road it is chucking it down in Edinburgh which has resulted in a lovely swimming pool of water in the passenger foot well.

Engine first,
The throttle is pretty grubby but no visible signs of split hoses etc. However, shining a torch on the front end of the throttle assembly shows a thin finger of fumes coming from somewhere, suspect a gasket as the carbon filter plug seems solid.
Given this is local to the area I am assuming that this has a lot to do with it. Before I start replacing sensors and dizzy lids etc I will strip down and clean up the throttle assembly so toothbrush and carb cleaner.
The car has had a recent air filter, dizzy lid and the HT leads look ok.
However, judging by the amount of petrol coming out of the exhaust pipe I would say that we have frequent misfiring and over fuelling.
This leads me to also suspect the blue sensor, given these are quite cheap I might replace this as a matter of course, given how frequently they cause issues like this.
Incidently, when this fault manifested, the dash lights also failed at the same time - related?

Leaks - now first off I think we have an issue with the heater valve, I have in fact bought a good 2nd hand one to replace mine as the heater is pretty ineffective and the car has a new thermostat, I suspect the valve is stuck on 1/2 closed. I will check the temperature selector, in my experience of 20 year old cars, variable resistors like this are a minefield of problems and often a clean with some meths can work wonders.

Damp in the footwell(s) I had initially put down to leaky coolant from the above but the sheer quantity and taste of the water leads me to believe that most of it is actually coming into the car.
Now the Baur roof is watertight, no signs of any water getting in through there. My suspicion is a blocked drain hose in the wiper motor scuttle which, combined with a degraded grommet is causing water to pour into the car via the A pillars.

A few weeks ago I found a page inthe excellent Wiki on this site which tells you how to access the scuttle and where the culprits are likely to be found - I can't for the life of me find it again so any pointers to this would be hugely appreciated.

last but not lease, there is a rubbing noise from the offside rear of the vehicle - almost as if a handbrake shoe is sticking. I'll have to take the wheels off and have a play.

Any pointers re misfire and the leak would be appreciated, especially whether there is a connection between the dash lights dying and the misfire, the electrics in my car are proving themselves to be in dire need to some TLC, contact cleaner and vaseline (sounds well dodgey) if there is a connection then this could indicate a damp/electric problem rather than a leak.

However, I am also experienced enough to know that when working with an older car that has seen some recent neglect in its last 2 owners, problems can have more than one head

[Rtaylor2208]

For the rough running issues follow the idling issues guide in the wiki. You need to be logical and rule out issues with the coolant sensor, AFM, TPS, air leaks on the intake side.

For air leaks common ones are:

1. failed rubber hung on the underside of the Throttle body
2. Failed orings on the oil breather pipe between the inlet manifold and the block
3. Breather pipe from the throttle body to the rocker cover
4. All vacum pipes particularly the large boot between the air of and the Throttle body
5. Throttle body gasket
6. inlet manifold gaskets
7. Dipstick orings

[baurscoot]

Brilliant,
thanks for such a definative list, a huge help.

I'm going to remove the throttle body and TPS as well, I run a soda blasting business (plug: www.sodablastscotland.com) and will clean the throttle inside and out with soda, this will get rig of all the oil gunk.

All the pipe ends look pretty ropey as well, wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a hairline crack somewhere.

also, I think I will remove the rubber plug from under the throttle and replace it with a dollop of chemical metal or similar

when it stops flippin raining/snowing I'll let you know how I get on

[Rtaylor2208]

Where is your soda blasting place? Might be interested in getting a price for some bits done?

[Rtaylor2208]

A lot of the vacum pipes, orings and gaskets are cheap from the dealer. I am in the process of replacing all of them on my cab on the inlet side. Apart from the complicated pipes that go from the brake servo to the TB.

[baurscoot]

We're based near Winchburgh in West Lothian, however, we might be about to start a large 3 week fire damage soda clean at Prestwick so will be in our neck of the woods. Prices depend on what you want done and when. Alloy wheels are about 40 quid each. Rocker Cover...30 , a bonnet from £90

Well, I removed the throttle body, boot, the icv and pipes, the airbox and air sensor as well as the rocker cover to throttle breather.

Cleaned the throttle, the boot and pipes etc, no sign of any leaks.

However, the breather hose was clogged with tarry oil deposits.
The air filter turns out to be a K&n panel filter and it is filthy, cant have been cleaned for a few years.

So I unclogged the breather hose and have washed the k&n filter which is now drying on my boiler. I might replace it with a paper one anyway, as it might be beyond washing, we will see what happens when dry abd when I stick a bit of


Atf on it

Now, next issue, we have water in the boot,

Its a baur remember, any ideas if there is a channel drain at the back im missing?

Also, where do I find the elephant trunk scuttle drain?

This is the first time ive had a spanner at the E30, on the whole it is a delightful car to work on, cabt beat a longitudinal engine......reminds me of working on a volvo 240!

[baurscoot]

I havent got a spare throttle body gasket and wont be able to get one till next week, in the meantime ill just use bkue gasseal even though it makes a hell of a mess!

[Rtaylor2208]

The boot leak can be a few things, misaligned boot so not closing on the seal properly, perished seal, light gaskets and the worst case of all rot in the wells. Does it only get when when driven in the rain or does it get wet even when just standing?

Any signs of rust under the carpets, on the rear panel or wells?

[baurscoot]

There is very little rust on the car at all, only a small patch where the battery tray meets the scuttle. I suspect the car has been garaged for much of its life. This water would have entered the car since november as the car has been stored outside at our business since. I suspect the boot seal is past it even though it isnt worn or torn.

Hoping that the missfire was down to the blocked rocker cover breather, with the crud in the air filter its hardly surprising the breather pipe has sooked up a load of oil.

[baurscoot]

update as of 11 o clock this morning:
Last night I stripped down the air box, the Air Flow Meter, the throttle, the idle control valve and rubber pipes and boots, the rocker cover breather hose which was badly clogged. I cleaned the lot out and washed the after market K&N theatre and let it dry overnight.

I reassembled it all this morning and started up and went for a drive.

First issue I noticed is since cleaning the initial idle is set at 2000rpm - a tad fast, when warmed this drops to 1500rpm.

Under throttle the car is much better but still some hesitation on flooring it a bit like an over fuelling carb. I only went for a 1 mile drive and that in town so didn't get the opportunity to really boot it.

My thoughts are to leave it a couple of days, use the car, give it an Italian tune up on the motorway and see what happens. I suspect that the fuelling might be an issue as well, if the air filter was anything to go on then the fuel filter will need replacing and the injectors will need cleaning.

I think I will order new temp sensors anyway as with the high idle I suspect the car is in 'limp home mode' and there is a faulty sensor somewhere, at least the car is useable now.

Water
Thanks for the tips on the boot, I will check both the seals round the lid and the light
passenger water - well the elephant's trunk was blocked solid with dirt and rotten leaves, I took off the wiper grills and manually cleaned out more dirt and rubbish.

Overall impressions.
I am quite pleased with the vehicle so far, yes there are a load of niggles but most of these indicate that it has been a bit neglected recently and run on a bit of a budget. As we know these cars need TLC but also need a budget to run properly. The good news is that prior to this recent neglect, this car has been very well cared for and has obviously lived in a garage for most of its life, there is no rust in the usual E30 places except for a spot wherether scuttle meets the battery tray and I have noticed some surface rusting on the subframe but nothing a liberal application of Vactan won't sort. Once I have sorted the mechanical, electrical and interior issues I will invest in some bilt hamber rustproofing and get the spaces in the frame waxed up especially the B and C pillar where the Baur frame joins the BMW one, it is solid at the moment but this is what usually kills Baurs.

So, if anyone has any ideas about the high idle I would be interested to hear - I am suspecting the Air Flow Meter is the culprit

[Grrrmachine]

High Idle suggests you've incorrectly set up the throttle position switch, so the engine doesn't know it's supposed to be idling.

[baurscoot]

that makes sense, although I put the TPS back in exactly the same place, However I may have spun it though 360 degrees inadvertantly when fitting.

I will remove and refit,

thanks

[Grrrmachine]

You need to ensure that someone hasn't fiddled with the throttle stop in the past. Listen for the click as soon as the throttle arm is moved/pedal pressed - that will indicate the TPS coming off its IDLE position.

If someone has fiddled with the throttle stop then the TPS won't be able to move back to its IDLE setting. Also, the throttle will be open more, leading to higher revs.

[baurscoot]

I suspect we have a legacy TPS issue here, no click is audible, The TPS was not sitting at 90 degrees - rather sitting at it's maximum 'clock wise' setting.

My I will try and reset but if I am unable to would replacing the TPS be the bext course of action?

thanks again

[daimlerman]

Given the location of the TPS,it is not unusual to find the oil circulated by the crankcase breather has found it's way inside and gummed it up.

A tiny hole drilled in it's bottom often allows this oil to drain out and restore it to normal working.

[Rtaylor2208]

The settin up of the TPS is covered in the idling page in the wiki, it also covers what malc mentioned above.

The idle control valve may also be sticky so a good clean with carb cleaner and test the continuity as per the wiki to make sure its functioning as expected.

The blue sensor only needs to be replaced if faulty which testing at the sensor and ecu would confirm if either the sensor and of wiring is an issue. Again detailed in the wiki pages.

[baurscoot]

Thanks, when I took the TPS off it seemed quite clear of gunk, there was oil in it but quite clear. I will get the dremel out and drill a drain hole.

I will check out the TPS set up on the wiki

The idle control valve I removed and gave a clean but it was pretty spotless inside, however, I did notice that when I removed it it was half open half closed so I might bench test it.

[baurscoot]

Righty dokey,
I need some help in setting up the TPS.

This is what I have done so far:

1/ cleaned Air Flow Meter and repositioned the contacts onto afresh area of carbon strip
2/ removed TPS, opened it - sure enough full of oil and gunk and the 'stop' was not contacting the switch, I adjusted it by slightly bending the fork so it touches the switch now. Driled a hole and refitted the lot - no change still idling at 2000RPM.

3/ I removed the TPS socket and bridged the terminals, the ICV kicked in and the idle dropped to 800 RPM

Now, I recall finding a wiki page on how to set the TPS but I am bvggered if I can find it again..
is this a TPS set up issue or is the TPS borked?

cheers

Rich

[Rtaylor2208]

The TPS on mine is for a swichable auto, but according to Brian the principle is the same:

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=235152

[Brianmoooore]

Are you sure it is really idling at the figures you say, or are you just going by the car's tacho?
Many E30s will have had replacement instrument clusters, changed by owner's too lazy or too dim to just change the SI circuit board inside, and if a complete unit from a four cylinder car has been fitted, the tacho. will read 50% high.
Blip the throttle, and see if the needle goes past the red.

[baurscoot]

definately idling at 2000 RPM, judging by the noise exhaust etc. The instrument cluster is OEM and not been refitted as the SI batteries are knackered as is the brake pad wear solder.

[clipper]

Slightly off topic but is it really advisable to oil a k&n filter with atf?

[baurscoot]

Parantly so, k&n filter oil is essentially the same stuff as atf.

[baurscoot]

You can also use citroen LHM fluid.

[baurscoot]

Well, no closer so I have ordered a new TPS, blue sensor and will also replace plugs, leads, fuel and oil filters and give the car a service. Hopefully this should sort these ongoing issues