M3 S62 4X4!!! Glutton for punishment!

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:30 am

Hi,

Looks like you can make this
all work with the X5 sump etc.
Looking good.

Hartge did an S62 into an X5 a few
years ago not sure if anything there
they did might assist with your plans.

Respect to the Welder as well, [ Dave the Goat ?]
some of the cleanest neatest Welding I have seen
in a long time.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:15 pm

Yes Dave is an absolute legend! Highly recommended.

Hartges version of the x5 was rear wheel drive only. So unfortunately they cheated

I believe din an also did a supercharged s62 x5, but that too was rwd.

Its looking good. Im not totally sure about the cog size i need to be using on the x5 pump however. You say a smaller cog on the pump with the same sized crank with make the pump run faster right?

If thats the case its looking like Ill need to use the x5 cog. Theres is a fair difference in size imo. Might have to rig up an oil pool and drill to test. Any ideas of how to measure actual flow?

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:08 am

Here's a picture where you can count the teeth on M60/M62 oil pump sprocket; http://peruna.fi/~jonsku/E36%20V8/alpina/Alpina1.JPG

All M60 / M62 engines seem to have the same sprocket; http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/11411733962/

Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Thanks Mr Gorilla.

And thanks to Turk for posting a pic of the *good* bit of welding!

It looks like you won't need any, but if you need custom oil pump sprockets made Turk, I know a couple of companies who should be able to make them.

Cheers! Dave.

Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:17 am

Hi,

Assuming that the Crank Cog for
driving the Oil Pump is 21 teeth,
then for the Oil Pump to rotate
at the same 'rpm' as Crank ie] 1-1
then it would have 21 teeth also.

Postive Displacement Oil Pumps that are
Crank Driven should useally run at
approx 60% of engine speed.

Thus with 21 teeth on the Crank Cog
then for 60% there would be approx 28/29
teeth on the Oil pump Cog.

To speed the Oil Pump Up, the less teeth on
the Oil Pump Cog, to slow it down
more teeth.

With regard to flow rates, you need to measure
the Diameter of the Oil Pump pick up just as
it enters the pump body.

If the S62 and X5 Oil pump are the same size
and the Oil 'out' is the same size then for oil
flow rates its the Cog gearing that will dictate
Oil Flow rates, subject to pickup, that the engine
will pump.

I would be inclined to increase the Oil flow [volume]
but reduce the resistance a liitle so that while
you might not make quite the same oil pressure
at low RPM, you have got a much better flow.

Then as the RPM increases you have excellent flow
with a good increasing Oil pressure, which is much
better than a High Oil pressure with less flow [volume]

As mentioned earlier, you can achieve this by Oil
Filtre material etc.

What you do not want is the Oil Relief Valve constantly
opening and closing due to a High Oil pressure with
a restricted flow.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:04 pm

Its tricky to measure the 'input' because the s62 pump has multiple in's. But with varying sizes its clear not all are used simultaneously.

If I measure the main pick up holes they are 1mm or so different. X5 is bigger.

The x5 sprocket i bought has 25 teeth, the s62 has 30, Based on this i will take your (GermanGorilla) advice re size of sprocket to be using.
I have also noticed the teeth are a lot sharper on the S62 one. The chain needs to be modified in situ as the chain is around the crank.

I have torqued down the pump now and test fitted the pump and its looking very good i must say

Im thinking to baffle the sump and take your advice in making a backup reservoir and pump to 'feed' the suction pipe.

I take your point re the filter to improve flow. You have obviously done this before, would you be willing to maybe make one up for me? if so let me know a cost.

Does anyone down south have a chain adjustment tool?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:54 pm

Can't you just buy a rivet extractor from Halfords/a bike/motorbike shop?

Or, there's always E-bay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... Categories

Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:04 pm

You'd also need a "soft link" so you can re-rivet the chain. If there are I.D numbers on the side of the chain links, hopefully you'll be able to track down a link, and riviting tool.

Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:41 am

Hi,

Regarding the Oil Filtre, its quite easy
and time is at a premiuim for me at
the moment.

If things change I will let you know
its not so hard to do either, more
time consuming than actual costs.

Do either S62 or X5 run a Chain Tensioner/Guide
for the Oil Pump ?

Also when you refit the Oil Pump Spockets/Cogs
make sure you use plenty of Locthread and
I would also S/S 'wirelock' the securing nuts
on them to be sure.

There are cases of S54 Oil Pumps main
Sprocket/Cog nut coming loose, you can
guess the rest.

Have you thought about removing the flat cover
over the main Oil pick up, and sit it in a Mesh
basket, ala E36 Evo/S54 Sumps, with a bottom
access panel in the sump pan itself ?

The Mesh basket is fitted to access panel flange, you
could cut the flange with basket from a
S50/54 Sump pan, and then weld it in to the
bottom of the X5 sump.

Access panel just bolts to the flange with
6 x m6 bolts with a Large 'O' ring recessed into it
which seals on the flat of the flange when its tightened up.

Bit of hassle now, but sure does make life easier
from there on in.

Just ideas !!!!!

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:37 am

The chain has no guide or tensioner. So the chain will have to be perfect :s

using a mesh basket and maybe magnetic oil plug would be the way to go. I will look in to doing this.

Sprocket wise, what size do u think i should use?

I found this : http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/chainlength.html

cheers
Adem

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:08 pm

He, Gents. I'm the 'Murkin that Turk mentioned earlier in this thread who's also doing an E30 S62 AWD build.

In order to verify that you'll be getting at least as much oil volume out of the M62 pump as out of the S62 pump, you'll need to take the pumps apart and measure the size of the internal gerotor parts.

You can tell by the size of the sprocket that the S62 pump turns slower than the M62 pump. Since the S62 engine requires at least as much oil as the M62, if not more, then the S62 pump must be moving at least as much oil per *engine* revolution as the M62 pump... This means that per *pump* revolution the S62 pump moves significantly more oil than the M62 pump.

You will likely be very close on the oil volume if you use the M62 sprocket and chain to turn the pump at M62 speed, but seeing that the S62 is an expensive piece of hardware to break, I'd be inclined to disassemble both pumps and measure the internal rotors, calculate the resulting volume output to be *sure* that what you're bolting in will push as much oil as what you unbolted.

If you turn the M62 pump the same speed as the S62 pump, you'll likely not have enough oil flow.

It's good to see you working through these challenges while I'm working on other aspects of my swap. Thanks!

turk wrote: I have no idea what steering rack I can use yet. I know the likes of e30 and e36 racks foul between the diff and the steering knuckle. The chaps in the US have tried and failed. So more on that in a few months.

Umm... I think failed is a strong word. I've been working on a totally new exhaust for my V8 Fiero for the last couple of months and haven't spent so much time working on the S62. I'm pretty sure I know what will work for the steering rack, however.

Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:56 pm

Hi,

No need to take the pumps apart.

Rig the pumps up screwed to a
timber support and then drive
them via an electric drill at given
rpm.

Use the exsiting chains and sprockets
and test them pumping over a 30 sec
period at say 1500 rpm drill speed.

I think they will pump very close to each
other given that the S62 runs at a lower
rpm [ larger pump Cog/sprocket], but
you need to test.

Their respective flow rates and ltrs per
minute should be available from BMW,
but best to double check in situ.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:51 pm

GermanGorilla wrote:Hi,
Rig the pumps up screwed to a
timber support and then drive
them via an electric drill at given
rpm.

Use the exsiting chains and sprockets
and test them pumping over a 30 sec
period at say 1500 rpm drill speed.

There's no way to guarantee that the drill will turn the two pumps at the same RPM. The pump with the higher drive torque requirement will turn slower than the other one.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:23 pm

Just need to use the same drill on the same speed over maybe 10 seconds. I have a feeling 30 seconds will too long. The proof will be in the volume of oil displaced into the chased container.

Its going to be a lot of effort rigging up a 'test'.

A friend in germany has actually used the m62 pump in an s62 with a custom pickup in order to allow for clearance. unfortunately he has no pics

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:35 pm

turk wrote:Just need to use the same drill on the same speed over maybe 10 seconds.

You can't guarantee that the drill will actually turn the same RPM, even on the same speed setting.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:58 pm

Its not going to be far off is it. if we're being that exact then a finger controlling a drill button is going to effect much more then a few rpm here and there.

pressing the button half a second later or earlier will change things drastically. The main idea is to be able to visually judge as best as possible (displacement volume\pressure) which cog is the most suitable. Hopefully with a tolerance of 0.5 seconds, over 10, there will only be a discrepancy of 5%. Not perfect but not bad either. After all we know we will need to be somewhere around the 2 cogs sizes. As the Gorilla has said, if we calculate to increase it by 10% this should cover us.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:18 pm

Hi,

Quote-

''There's no way to guarantee that the drill will turn the two pumps at the same RPM. The pump with the higher drive torque requirement will turn slower than the other one.

Not sure I follow you on this.

Positive displacement pump that is direct
drive, ie] not geared, will only incur 'torque'
drag when the output flow is meeting resistance.

This test does not require the pumps to
'pressure up' the out feed.

In this case the oil is being sucked in and pumped
straight out again, there is no resistance, save the
actual viscosity of the Oil which is the same for
testing both pumps.

Not an exact science but will more than
suffice for determining the flow rates
with their respective Cogs/Sprockets.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:21 pm

The drill does not have closed loop RPM control. This we agree on.

*ANY* difference in the torque it takes to drive the pump will result in an unpredictable change in the drill's RPM.

We're quite sure that the pumps have different internal dimensions for reasons previously stated. The different internal dimensions by themselves will result in different torque to turn each pump. Also, as the flow rates of the pumps differ, the drill will be lifting and moving oil, even if the pump isn't developing pressure.

It is simply that the test is not well controlled, not well characterized, and better results will be had by disassembling the pumps and measuring the rotors.

Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:49 am

Hi,

Quote- ''We're quite sure that the pumps have different internal dimensions for reasons previously stated.''

This is what is thought to be the case and
is not a known fact.
Its an assumption to date.

If the S62 Pump does have a capacity for greater flow
at the same rpm as the X5 Pump, then the parasitic losses
between the two pumps when meeting resistance
will not be great.

As the S62 Cog/Sprocket is larger, then it
leads me to 'believe' that this pump will
have a couple more 'blades' or 'rotors'
internally,which may also be a fraction longer
or wider, so that it generates more flow for the same rpm
in a pump that is turning a little slower.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:03 pm

Oil pump aside a sec, I need some advice on clutch selection.

So i will be buying a lightweight flywheel for the s62. The standard flywheel is uncomfortably tight in the bell housing being dual mass an all. SO,,, more money down the drain.

To match that I need a 240mm E30 m3 clutch disc. obviously I will need a significantly uprated clutch. Can anyone advise a clutch disc which will be good enough???

I plan on using an e34 M5 Clutch pressure plate, unless I can find an e30 m3 pressure plate to fit the s62 flywheel?

Cheers
Adem

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:46 pm

Hi,

Have you ever felt the weight of
the E34 M5 Pressure plate !

Its 'agricultural at best'.

I do not think the E30 M3 Disc
will be up to it either.
Long time since I saw one but I thought
they were 228mm not 240mm.

S62 M5 were reknowned for Clutch Slip,
it was more the 'SAC' Cover not being
able to hold the torque when the disc
was worn over 50%.

To hard a Clutch Disc with 4 wheel drive
will be horrendous.
You need a progressive clutch, not in or out.

I would suggest something like a BMW E34 M5
Single Mass Steel Flywheel, machine down,
and the ring gear spot welded on, with the
E39 M5 Std Clutch disc, and a 40% uprated
Clutch cover from a BMW E36 Evo [S50 B32]

E36 Evo clutch pressure plate is good and does
not have ''SAC'' so uprated will hold better,
Std E39 Clutch disc, is fine, plus it will be
the correct 'splines' and the E34 M5 Single
Mass flywheel when lightened down will
give some rotational Mass that you will
need.

Just some ideas.

Regards,

The Gorilal.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:56 pm

The spline will have that of the e30m3 box. I thought the sline on those were individual to the m3.

I was thinking of the e34 m5 pressure plate as They're meant to be the nuts.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:33 pm

Hi,

If you want a Boat Anchor for a
Pressure Cover the E34 M5 will
do the job.

BMW 850 Csi is the same sort of
Boat Anchor.

The E30 M3 STD Getrag is Course spline,
10 in number so BMW e46 m3 and
BMW E36 3.0 Clutch Discs will fit.
[240mm]

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:06 pm

What are the Rev limits on both engines? the Pumps arnt geared differently for RPM limits reasons are they either for the RPM limits of the engine or the pump its self?

Dont know but just a thought, we have engine oil pumps that look identical at work but they have different RPM limits and flows....

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:04 pm

appletree wrote:What are the Rev limits on both engines? the Pumps arnt geared differently for RPM limits reasons are they either for the RPM limits of the engine or the pump its self?

This is also what my contact in Germany has said. He is positive the engine will not suffer from oil starvation or anything like that.

I think a cog with 27 teeth would be perfect.

Want to get this thing zipped up asap as i need to get mocking up of other bits!

Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:58 am

I was just thinking about your chain issues a little more... As there's no tensioner and reasonably high RPM, I wonder what the implications of the imbalance of a slightly heavier soft link in the chain would be.
Perhaps it would be an idea to have a word with these guys to see if they can supply and "endless" chain, i.e, with no soft link: http://www.renold.com/home/Home.asp
I've used their motorcycle chains in the past and they're fantastic.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:25 pm

Hi,

Just be careful if using Motorbike
Chain for any Car application.

Reason being that most Motorcycle
chains are 30,000 KM or less for
recommended replacement.

They are designed to stretch and wear.

I have just been through a nightmare on
a Merc 16v Cosworth Timing Chain issue
where the Tsubaki Chain was recommended as
being the 'Dogs' by those supposedly in the know
only for Tsubaki UK to say no way at all should
it be used.

A double chain [duplex] would be
a very good solution in this instance, just to add
to the fun [headaches] if there is enough
room on the Crankshaft for the double sprocket.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:59 pm

A double chain would fit in the crank space, but the sump has a 'trough' for the oil pump sprocket to sit it, I doubt a double chain will fit in there. I don't want to chop the sump up either.

I have decided I will be using the X5 cog! The m62 and S62 use the same amount of oil Not sure about pressure yet tho). Based on my research the X5 pump had to be narrower to clear the subframe AND allow for the driveshaft. Therefore the fins in the pump we smaller, hence needed to turn more in order to deliver the same amount of oil.

The S62 pump was enlarged and geared down in comparison to the M62. This also meant the bearings etc would last longer on the higher revving S62.

I Will still be taking GermanGorillas advice re the oil filter in order to improve 'flow'.

Im glad I have finally figured this one out... phew! Time to crack on...

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:24 pm

GermanGorilla wrote:Hi,

Quote- ''We're quite sure that the pumps have different internal dimensions for reasons previously stated.''

This is what is thought to be the case and
is not a known fact.
Its an assumption to date.

As the S62 Cog/Sprocket is larger, then it
leads me to 'believe' that this pump will
have a couple more 'blades' or 'rotors'
internally,which may also be a fraction longer
or wider, so that it generates more flow for the same rpm
in a pump that is turning a little slower.

Exactly... It's a reasonable assumption that the pumps have different internal dimensions because the sprockets turn them different speeds relative to engines with similar oil needs.

I'm going to be using a flexplate for the ring gear and building a button flywheel to mount a Tilton dual disk 7.25" clutch. The S62 has *plenty* of low RPM torque to move a car as light as an E30 even with an extremely light flywheel/clutch.

www.tiltonracing.com

For some reason the forum won't send me reply notification emails.

Thu May 03, 2012 9:47 pm

Ive been talking to Richard at Big bavarian beauties, very helpful chap. He has pointed out to me that the e46 330d clutch pressure plate is suitable for 500-600 nm odd of torque.

AND the e46 plates just happen to fit straight on the s62 flywheel. So a sprung clutch disc and off we trot

Waiting for loads of bits to arrive. pix to come soon hopefully liven up this rather boring thread

Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 pm

mad man !!

I love it...

I will be watching and the best of luck to you

Thu May 03, 2012 10:12 pm

Thanks mate ;)

Tue May 08, 2012 8:28 pm

Good progress and lots of interesting info

Couple of notes;
-E34 M5 Sachs Racing pressure plate is a good option, though quite heavy and big. Can withstand +700Nm, is 240mm in diameter and suits M10 / M30 / M50 / S14..
-The oil pump chain is tensioned by the pump itself (there's adjusting "inside bolt" in one side of the pump bolts). No way a chain would work correctly without tensioning..

TheDarkSideofWill wrote:The drill does not have closed loop RPM control. This we agree on.

*ANY* difference in the torque it takes to drive the pump will result in an unpredictable change in the drill's RPM.

Dude, you need to come back to real life from laboratories.. Some 1% difference in flow does not matter, the accuracies to work with are way off those numbers..

Tue May 08, 2012 8:49 pm

good advice Jonsku. Thats pretty much the way I am going.
I need a narrower flywheel as the dualmass has a huge amount of unneeded material which is fouling the bellhousing.

I think I will be having E34 m5 pressure plate and sprung disc with custom flywheel.

The plate needed between the gearbox and bellhousing will be spacing things out 15mm. this will ensure that enough of the splines on the shaft remain in the friction disc.

Im not too worried about the weight of the pressure plate as the flywheel will be a lot lighter than standard.

This is the adjusting outer bolt: theres around 15mm thread on it. Bit a thread lock and it should be fine.

Tue May 08, 2012 11:02 pm

Jonsku wrote: Dude, you need to come back to real life from laboratories.. Some 1% difference in flow does not matter, the accuracies to work with are way off those numbers..

In God we trust. All others bring data.

IE, if you think it's less than 1%, substantiate that with numbers...

Oh yeah, none of us have any.