E30 Zone

Hi all,

After reading the Rennlist forum on the subject of injector upgrades being done by Porsche 928 owners in the States, I've been spurred to investigate the possibility of changing the standard 25 year old injectors in my E30 320is, in favour of something more advanced.

Initially I looked for injectors of the same basic type (Gen I or EV3), and discovered (forgive if you already know) that those fitted as standard in the E36 M3 are of an identical specification in every way except their impedance, which is higher in the later car.

There are a few injector specification pages dotted around t'interweb, but most carry specification figures which differ considerably from those given by Bosch in their on-line catalogue. Indeed, injectors which are specified by Bosch as being of the same flow rates (@ 3bar), nearly always came up on these pages as being different.

The injector specification and cross reference chart I've been using can be found at http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/prod ... r_data.xls

I have an injector shortlist but like the standard 0 280 150 201 they're all single stream injectors, whereas ideally Id like to look at those which split the spray pattern in two, for use with the multi port cylinder head.

Therefore, does anyone know, or can anyone measure the separation angle between the inlet valves, centred on the injector port in the throttle body ?

Any information most welcome.

Best Regards,

David Seer.

Hi David - I had a quick look at this as well for my recent rebuild. I am using a standalone ECU so it could be said that I have a bit more freedom to choose injector types. In the end, I read a fair bit on s14.net where there is a load of info. I am currently using Ford Focus ST injectors in mine from the 5 pot engine - about 25% more flow than a standard M3 injector for my mildly tweeked build and latest spray pattern for Euro 5 emissions so I figured good enough as a first stab.

Hope that helps!

Hi Mikey,


Sounds good.

Hi All.

The alternative injector saga continues:

Porsche 944 used the same injectors as as the E30 M3 & 320is, and it just so happens that my research led me to an interesting Porsche related info on the same subject at:

http://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/62 ... -info.html

...although I have yet to ascertain whether or not the Porsche drivers already have a preferred EV6 type alternative to the 0 280 150 201.

Also, the youtube spray comparison videos are something of an eye opener too !

Using the spreadsheet linked to at the beginning of this thread, I narrowed the search based on the following criteria:

Type: EV6
Electrical Connector: Jetronic
Fuel rail connector: Grommet
Manifold connector: Grommet
Flow rate: 172.2 - 187.1 g/min @ 3bar.
Conic Spray Angle: Equal to or less than 19 degrees, but not less than 12 degrees (any greater a spray angle will increase the potential for puddling of the fuel in the inlet port).
Alpha 50 Spray Angle (flow separated into 2 streams): NULL (although with a little more research and a stripped cylinder head, this could be made to work work well with the S14)
Axial deviation of spray pattern: NULL
Spray orientation angle: NULL

After doing this many times, I narrowed the list to four possible candidates, and then to only one; namely 0 280 155 715, which has the following specifications:

Datum flow: 186.6g/min @ 3bar (compared to 182.9g/min of the OE injectors)
Operating Pressure 2.7bar.
Conic Spray Angle: 12 deg.
Impedance: 14.5 ohm.

I went ahead and bought a set of 0 280 155 715 injectors from CS Performance Injectors in The States, and a couple of hours a go, I fitted them.

I did fit and additioonal 'o' ring at the bottom of each of them to ensure that they couldn't descend too far into the throttle bodies under the pressure of the fuel - remember they don't have any facility to take the retaining clip of the original injectors.

Once everything was back together, I turned the key. It took a few seconds of cranking to get the fuel rail primed, but eventually the engine sprang into life, and settled to a nice idle. The injectors don't sound quite the same as the old ones, but the engine itself sounds fine. In the absence of a gas analyser, I had a quick look at the exhaust for smoke, and a did a quick sniff-test for overfuelling, and everything seemed fine.

I let the engine idle for a minute or two whilst I put the tools away and washed my hands; then I took it for a test drive. The results thus far are that (without any adjustments) the idling is better, though not 100% as it should be (I'll have to get the vacuum gauges out !), there's no stink of neat fuel after stopping the engine, behaviour whilst driving at around 30mph in 3rd & 4th gears is improved, and the engine pulls cleanly from 1000rpm in 5th gear.

As I said, all of the above was done without a gas analyser, and without any adjustments to the fuel system or the throttle bodies, so I'm going to make sure that the throttles are balanced, and then call my local garage and book a short slot on their gas analyser to check the idle settings.

I'll give a further update when this is done.

Cheers

Dave (with a big, self satisfied grin on his face !)

Interested to hear how this went... I'm considering having my 25 year old injectors cleaned and flow checked etc but also considering fitting a nice new set of bosch injectors....

Hi Zinno,

The new injectors are brilliant. In most respects you wouldn't know that anything was different about the fuel system; and certainly not that the modification was in any way experimental. The car behaves exactly as you'd expect: You turn the key, and it starts from cold, but the consistency of the idle is better, and I think I'm getting a slight improvement in fuel economy; but I'll confirm that in another few weeks.

Where I do notice a difference however, is in the performance. Something I used to notice with my 320is, but that I also noticed with my 318is is that on most days, the performance was OK, but not exceptional. Then on some days, for no apparent reason, irrespective of weather, air temperature etc., the car would perform noticeably better - noticeably more willing to accelerate, and begging (much more than usual) to be driven quickly. Since I've fitted these modern injectors that extra sparkle is always there - consistently. The performance is much more willing, the throttle response is better, and the engine doesn't get "bogged down" at low speed - you're never left waiting for the power when trying to pull out of a junction on to a busy road with a lorry breathing down your neck !

So far these EV6 injectors are a complete triumph - a total success. So much so that if I were using factory standard injectors (particularly in a OE spec engine), I wouldn't even think of sticking with them - I'd use the cross reference chart mentioned in my first post (and no other reference chart), spend some time selecting an equivalent EV6 injector, and replace the old injectors as a matter of course.

...and the fact of the matter is that you'll spend more money having the old injectors cleaned than you will buying replacement EV6 injectors (0 280 155 715), and after having spent the money, you'll still have a set of 25+ year old injectors in your engine.

I'll let you know about the fuel economy in another few weeks.

Best Regards,

Dave.

Sounds awesome Dave - a really interesting solution to what's going to be a problem for all folks with old injected engines..

One final update.

It's now two months since I fitted these new injectors.

Today, I took the car to a local garage to have the exhaust emissions checked, and without adjustment, the the CO was hovering at around 1.5%.

Over the last few weeks, I've been watching my fuel consumption, and can now confirm that these injectors have cut the urban fuel consumption by 30%... I was using 30 litres a week just getting back and fore to work; this figure has come down to 20 litres a week, so these injectors paid for themselves in 6 weeks !

I have yet to do a long distance run, but I was able to get 40+mpg on the old injectors, so I'd expect the fuel consumption to be somewhere between 45 & 48mpg if I drive really carefully. This represents a reduction of between 12.5 & 20%.

Best Regards,

Dave.

I forgot I'd subscribed to this thread! It's great that you've posted more positive results. My car is stinking rich at idle and yesterday I dropped the oil as I'm replacing the rod bearings and the oil stank pretty heavily of raw fuel - not good. The car doesn't idle all that smooth so I'm thinking of finally changing the injectors over to these - I just have to hunt some down! I've changed the blue sensor in the water rail which is the common culprit for over fuelling so it would be great if in my case it was duff old injectors....

I remember another garage local to me refusing to complete an MOT test on the car, complaining that the stink of the exhaust fumes was eye-watering... and it was, but they had the roller-shutter doors closed !.. DUH ! lol

I was about to ask how much adjustment you have on your airflow meter to lean the mixture, but I suspect your M3 has a cat (?)... The other thing to check for is vacuum leaks between the throttle butterflies and the cylinder head, as this will throw the fuel pressure regulation out, and make the mixture rich at idle.

Also, have you balanced the air bypasses on the throttle bodies ?

Finally, for the fuel injectors, have you tried CP fuel Injection ?... They had a set on e-bay a couple of months ago, but in case they don't, I bought mine from CS Performance Injectors in the US.. Their current E-bay item no. is 200902254665

Best Regards,

Dave.

HI All,

Final update.

I have now done the long distance run that I was talking about, and I can report that whilst the urban fuel consumption remains 30% reduced and the performance excellent, the long distance constant speed consumption remains resolutely unchanged !... The 40mpg of which the car was capable with its' OE injectors, remains as before.

Now, I was initially hoping for some improvement, but on reflection I now take this as an indication that the injectors are actually a good match for the engine and the OE fuel map.

That's all folks !

Best Regards,

David.

HI again All,

The saga goes on a little.

Until recently, I was doing a lot of urban driving - the daily commute etc., and someone in the states who'd changed over to the 155715 injectors reported sooty sparkplugs. I got my plugs out to have a look, and mine weren't looking brilliant. This, of course made me think, and after a lot of E28/E34 M5 based research, I decided that a slightly hotter would probably be OK. So, I removed the standard Bosch X5DTCs, and replaced them with set of Y6DCs.

However, this brought about a couple of unfortunate side-effects: My car developed a momentary stutter under moderate load at low RPM, and under light loads at low RPM power delivery became decidedly jerky. I put this down to a combination of the narrow (12 deg) spray cone angle of the 155715 injectors, and the reduced projection of the Y6DC plugs in comparison to the X5DTCs. If you look at Bosch's spark plug data, there's supposed to be no difference in projection between the two types, but putting the two side-by-side, there clearly is. Bosch spark plug data HERE

Obviously, the jerky power delivery and fouled plugs are not good, so I went back the the injector data spreadsheet, to try to turn up an injector with a wider spray cone.

After a while I arrived at 0280156048, which has identical specifications to 0280155715, with the exceptions that it can take a retaining clip, it uses a USCAR connector plug, and it has a 15 degree spray cone as opposed to the 12 degree cone of the 155715 injector.

A quick search of e-bay turned up a flow-matched set from CS Performance injectors for $58 + shipping (cheap as chips !), and I fitted them the following Saturday morning, and the way my car ran once again looked promising I ran them for a couple of months, but I still wasn't happy with it, so I decided to try to find a split flow injector. I had looked at 0280155865, which uses a USCAR connector (which may still be a possibility), but I soon found 0280156211, which is used in turbocharged Rovers. Interestingly, the operating pressure of these injectors is 3 bar, but the pressure regulator on the Rover gives a maximum pressure of 3.5 bar. I installed these injectors at the weekend, and my car once again drives as it should. BTW, whilst I was at it, I got the sparkplugs out and they looked so much better.

So, I'm currently using 0280156211 injectors, which split the fuel flow into two streams, 20 deg apart, and so far. the car seems to be happy. I've also decided to change the fuel pump - it'll be interesting to see how much difference a fresh pump makes to things.

Things are still developing, so for those interested, watch this space.

Thoughts, observations, comments and questions welcome.

I am also using a split pattern injector, although somewhat larger than stock at 629cc/min. Bosch 0280 158 123 EV14 type with 25deg split and extenders fitted.

Whilst economy is not a priority for me, good idle stability and drivability at part throttle is and my S14 with 292/284 cams, drives like OEM. Pull away using no throttle-easy, 1000rpm in top gear-easy.

Ideally you would want to match the spray angle and the delta and gamma angles to the intake manifold and port shape.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/media/c ... 867pdf.pdf

stevesingo wrote:...EV14 type with 25deg split and extenders fitted.

Ideally you would want to match the spray angle and the delta and gamma angles to the intake manifold and port shape.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/media/c ... 867pdf.pdf

Steve,

Nice one. I'd rather have gone for a larger alpha angle, but 20 deg was the best I could do without straying too far from 182.9g/min (the 0 280 156 211 delivers up to 187g/min @ 3bar). Other than that, based on the data I have on the injector you're using, it looks like the 156 211 isn't a bad choice. I'm expecting some spark plugs with slightly longer projection to arrive next.

I use Denso IX27. Quite long nose, and no fouling.

Your fouling may be because you are running a little richer than stock, and S14s don't like cold starts as it is, the Motronic adds a lot of fuel!

Do you run a AFR gauge?

Have you tried adjusting the Fuel Quality Switch on the ECU? Your new injectors flow 2.46% more than stock. The FQS has a setting of -2.4% fuel, all the way counter clockwise and 3 clicks clockwise.

Steve, many thanks for your reply.

It turns out that the plug fouling problem goes back to before I started swapping injectors, and comes from too much urban / suburban driving (ie my own fault). Annoyingly my local BMW dealership used to "fix" it by using injector cleaner at £50+ a pop, just to get the car through an MOT. I put up with this for a couple of years, until I took my car elsewhere and it passed anyway !

BTW, the first injector swap I did (to 155 715 injectors) brought about a reduction in urban fuel consumption of all of 30% - sounds incredible I know, but to get back and fore to work for a week was taking 30 litres of fuel. When I swapped the injectors, my consumption for the very same journey over the course of a week came down to 20 litres.

Anyway, I digress; No, I'm not using a AFR gauge - my car has no O2 sensors.

I hadn't thought about altering the FQS - you're right my current injectors will deliver more fuel (although I worked it out at an additional 2.24% by mass).

If numbering positions 0 to 7, with position 0 (standard) being fully anti-clockwise, then position 3 would appear to be a reasonable setting, however there is conflicting information as to the amounts by which each position of the FQS will change things. As you say, one table says -2.4% fuelling, another says -3.9%, but then this is highlighted as incorrect, in favour of -1.8% (See http://s14net.vbulletin.net/forum/s14/g ... d-accurate).

The new plugs (Bosch YR6LDE) arrived this morning. I'll put them in and see how they go, then decide whether or not to alter the FQS.

EDIT Spark plug images.

I was hoping to add some images of the three different spark plugs I've used, but a verbal explanation will have to do. The Y6DC spark plugs came out looking very clean, especially when compared to the X5DTCs I took out a month or so ago. The YR6LDEs are now installed; we'll see what difference the extra projection makes tomorrow !