E30 Zone

Hi

After a crap Oulton Park day on Saturday I am not driving the car again until the tyres are getting the grip and lack of abuse the deserve. The camber is not correct.

The car doesn't have anything at the moment to adjust the camber.

Please can anyone advise of ways to get the optimal camber settings correct for the 3 standard trackday tyres (Dunlop 02/03's, Toyo R88, Yokos).

IIRC the optimal is around -3 deg f camber??

Couple of notes:
- car has spax suspension and is polybushed
- car currently weighs around 1090 kgs
- car is a 325i with LSD

Thanks in advance.

Nigel

I can send you some info and advice based on our experience on the R888's

We run more than -3 degrees

Dont just concentrate on the camber thought, get the castor, and toe done at the same time

Drop me a mail with the current setup and I'll send you our thoughts back

Cheers

Jimmy

Are you certain the tyres were rolling over? A good test is to draw a chalk line around the shoulder of the tyre before a session, then checking how much has been scrubbed off.

Tyre pressure's are one of, if not the most important setup factor influencing a cars handling. Helped a mate out at a track day one day, got his lap time down 22 seconds just buy fiddling with tyre pressures.

run 26 psi in R888's when dry.

Yes-the ryres are definately rolling over Having competed in half a dozen races now ot is getting embarrasing.

Any help?

Spax spring rates are far too soft for track use, particularly the rears.
This will make he situation worst.

Disagree.

They are fine for racing.

The suspension is not the issue.

Fair enough - entitled to your opinion but I'm not the only one who feels this.

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=172033

I appreciate that a few people will disagree.

We bought them on the back of many PBMW'ers using them in the series.

moggy wrote:run 26 psi in R888's when dry.

Yes-the ryres are definately rolling over Having competed in half a dozen races now ot is getting embarrasing.

Any help?

Those pressure look about right. My next suggestion would be to bite the bullet and invest in a set of front adjustable camber/caster strut tops, and then tip the top of the suspension all the way in. Some adjustable strut tops offer more camber/caster adjustment than others, but you should be able to dial in 3 degrees neg camber with most of them.

Edit:

Or, just upgrade to a set of offset, non-adjustable, camber tops. I have seen these around, and from memory are required for some racing series.

These are just one example of fixed plates (from Turner Motorsport in the US). These also look reasonably priced.



http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/de ... TSU3080459

Thanks.

What about the rear?

How much lower than standard is it on the rear?

I assume you want to reduce the negative camber a bit here?

You can get camber correction kits, like these:
http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp
EDIT, these are adjustable!

Just an example from the US, i'm sure you can get them over here if you have a search.

This for the rear -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 500wt_1154

Or build your own -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :MESELX:IT

Pm me for discounts

I don't know at what point it becomes a limitation, but non coilover suspension will limit the amount of camber you can achieve.

Mine is on -3 degrees camber at the front with adjustable top mounts (modified slighty) and spax psx springs/shocks.

PBMW racers appear to dial in the maximum neg camber on the front, I noticed a large diference in grip. You may want to look at stiff anti roll bars to combat the body roll due to wank springs. That's the next mod for me.

Wocka wrote:Mine is on -3 degrees camber at the front with adjustable top mounts (modified slighty) and spax psx springs/shocks.

PBMW racers appear to dial in the maximum neg camber on the front, I noticed a large diference in grip. You may want to look at stiff anti roll bars to combat the body roll due to **** springs. That's the next mod for me.

i wouldnt do that its not the same as harder springs. the end withe the roll bar will become more predictable, but ultimatley less grip..if i rememmber correctly

Harder springs are better, too stiff ARB will hinder more than help

Typically the amount of camber you can achieve is dictated by the strut top you are using, not whether it is Macpherson strut or a coilover. For example, I use an Australian made adjustable strut top with my KW V2 coilovers and can only get 3 degrees camber. I know many of the E30 racing guys here in Australia (who cannot use coilovers) get 3.5 degrees with a different designed strut top.

Thanks for all the input. I'm sterrig towards DanThe's solution although i'm struggling to understand how it fits together and where it adjusts.

You can get -4.5/5 degrees with our topmounts and a GAZ gold coilover combo

Dans solution at the rear is better than the adjustable bushes IMO

MillRat wrote:Typically the amount of camber you can achieve is dictated by the strut top you are using, not whether it is Macpherson strut or a coilover. For example, I use an Australian made adjustable strut top with my KW V2 coilovers and can only get 3 degrees camber. I know many of the E30 racing guys here in Australia (who cannot use coilovers) get 3.5 degrees with a different designed strut top.

Millrat,

Who makes the Aussie strut top, might be a starter for mine aswell.

Regards
Greg

Greg,

From memory I went through Peak RPM in Sydney. A very strong and well made strut mount (I am very pleased with it), but the only downside is that it will only give you about 3 degrees negative camber (enough for most cars mind you).



Please note that the allen key bolts in the picture are replaced with the suspension mounting bolts (the allen key bolts only hold it together before it is fitted).

Linky:
http://www.peakrpm.com/catalog/product_ ... cts_id=576

RPM wrote:You can get -4.5/5 degrees with our topmounts and a GAZ gold coilover combo

Dans solution at the rear is better than the adjustable bushes IMO

Picture and price please...

Are they caster adjustable?

Edit: Thats okay, just checked your website. You have some great stuff on there (and at good prices too)... Might have to start saving pennies again.

MillRat wrote:Greg,

From memory I went through Peak RPM in Sydney. A very strong and well made strut mount (I am very pleased with it), but the only downside is that it will only give you about 3 degrees negative camber (enough for most cars mind you).



Please note that the allen key bolts in the picture are replaced with the suspension mounting bolts (the allen key bolts only hold it together before it is fitted).

Linky:
http://www.peakrpm.com/catalog/product_ ... cts_id=576

They are expensive, compared to RPM's mounts, and still circlipped. Ive just knocked these up for about half the cost with a screw retained bearing, anybody want to guess at the expected max camber angle? Ive yet to get them on the car

^^ they look like mine.



pictured is 2 degrees, max is 3

Very interesting!

What would be the pros and cons of going from -3 to say -4.5?

Cheers.

mattrs wrote:Very interesting!

What would be the pros and cons of going from -3 to say -4.5?

Cheers.

Should be more grip on high speed corners.
Go to far with negative camber though and the car will tramline a lot, so it won't be good on rough roads. You start to lose braking traction in a straight line too as you're reducing the contact patch. More wear on the inner edges of the tyres too with everyday driving

Great replies chaps.

It would be interesting to divulge (willing information) on what camber / toe settings you run given the car setup under different circumstances and tryes.

I think I read somewhere (on here?) that -3 deg of camber and 26psi was optimal for R888's in dry conditions.

Help me improve my performance in the CSCC championship. There's only one other e30 in the champs and he's in an M3 so that doesn't count

We typically run our car with 3 degrees neg camber, maximum caster (not sure the amount) and 1 - 2 mm toe out (front). So far this drives, turns and brakes pretty well. Our biggest limiter at the moment is the tyres we are running (Bridgestone RE-01R).

My set up is:

0 toe front
0 toe rear
-3 camber front for track and -2 for road
-1.5 camber rear
front caster i cant remember.. -8 degrees maybe? i used m3 wishbone bushes.
R888s with 26psi cold
I haven't measured the ride height, it's on rubbish spax springs

It's a trackday car but does a fair few miles on the road which is why i opted for 0 toe rather than a little toe out and dialed back the -camber for the road.

Comments welcome, i have my flame suit on. However this is the first incarnation, I imagine it will change.

Wocka wrote:^^ they look like mine.



pictured is 2 degrees, max is 3

I should be getting 3 then, yours look to be for standard struts/springs as the bearing is much lower. Similar design as are most, where are they from BTW, look familiar.

DanThe wrote: I should be getting 3 then, yours look to be for standard struts/springs as the bearing is much lower. Similar design as are most, where are they from BTW, look familiar.

Yes standard diameter springs, I'm limited by the spring top hitting the turret as well as the adjusters being at the end of travel, is that the same for yours or are you using coilovers?

I got them from a fellow on e36coupe.com, only a limited number were made.


[edit] just re-read your post. you should in theory get a bit more on your coilover version. I have something similar to go on my E36.

Im using coilovers so can go to the end, was considering slotting the turret holes or making new top sections

Is it a race car then? I've seen people slot the turret bolt hole with standard mounts.. Not sure if I would do it myself though. You'd have to cut into the big hole at the top to clear the adjuster bolts too.

MillRat wrote: maximum caster (not sure the amount)

If you run E30 M3 CABS you'll be looking at around 9 degrees.