E30 Zone

Well in our first outing with the CSCC in the Future Classic the inevitable happened to our poor engine. Resulting in it ending up with a significant additional hole in the block. Bad news.

So we need a new engine and ideally someone who may know how best to fit it. We were at Cadwell and obviously it's a bit tough of the car (and driver)and we suspect that it was oil related in some way.

How difficult is it to rig up a oil temp guage?
and if anyone has any ideas on where to source an engine of good providence or build let me know.

It would be nice to see something like the 170 horses it should have.

Wouldn't take a day to remove and fit a known good engine to an M20'd e30 with an M20 going back in, and if you had the parts wouldn't take an hour to fit an oil temp guage, though that doesn't sound like it was the issue here, overly hot oil would not cause a rod or slug to break free of your block, nor would overly cold oil, sounds like the RPMs were taken too high or there was some inherrant issue with the engine already.

In fact also high or low oil pressure would probably cause seizure or over heating rather then the engine throwing its dummy out of the pram!

HI

Cadwell kills m20 due to oil starvation, you need one of Nigel AKA alloyproducts on here big sumps and a m21 oil pump.

Jason

fieldl wrote:Well in our first outing with the CSCC in the Future Classic the inevitable happened to our poor engine. Resulting in it ending up with a significant additional hole in the block. Bad news.

So we need a new engine and ideally someone who may know how best to fit it. We were at Cadwell and obviously it's a bit tough of the car (and driver)and we suspect that it was oil related in some way.

How difficult is it to rig up a oil temp guage?
and if anyone has any ideas on where to source an engine of good providence or build let me know.

It would be nice to see something like the 170 horses it should have.

Where are you based??

Can recommend a couple of very good engine builders dependant on budget?

And someone to fit, and do oil gauges etc

PM if you prefer to do offline

Jimmy

Only just seen the replies sorry guys.
Replacement engine sourced from WTD board here and being fitted later this week. Hopefully we will be testing next week.

e21Jason wrote:HI

Cadwell kills m20 due to oil starvation, you need one of Nigel AKA alloyproducts on here big sumps and a m21 oil pump.

Jason

Sorry to hijack, but what's the reason for fitting an M21 oil pump?

the M21 engine is a diesel and the oil pump is much higher pressure & that means more flow too so less chance of starvation. Just to give you an idea you stop the engine on my car even when warm and it takes a fair few seconds before the oil pressure light comes on
I lunched my M20 on a left hand circuit and rebuilt it with nigels sump and the M21 pump-Sorted!!

Paynts wrote:the M21 engine is a diesel and the oil pump is much higher pressure & that means more flow too so less chance of starvation. Just to give you an idea you stop the engine on my car even when warm and it takes a fair few seconds before the oil pressure light comes on
I lunched my M20 on a left hand circuit and rebuilt it with nigels sump and the M21 pump-Sorted!!

I'm liking the sound of this.
Direct bolt on mod?

N00b wrote:

Paynts wrote:the M21 engine is a diesel and the oil pump is much higher pressure & that means more flow too so less chance of starvation. Just to give you an idea you stop the engine on my car even when warm and it takes a fair few seconds before the oil pressure light comes on
I lunched my M20 on a left hand circuit and rebuilt it with nigels sump and the M21 pump-Sorted!!

I'm liking the sound of this.
Direct bolt on mod?

I'm interested in hearing a bit more too.

Will it work with a std sump, or only one with an altered sump bowl??

BadDave wrote:

N00b wrote:

Paynts wrote:the M21 engine is a diesel and the oil pump is much higher pressure & that means more flow too so less chance of starvation. Just to give you an idea you stop the engine on my car even when warm and it takes a fair few seconds before the oil pressure light comes on
I lunched my M20 on a left hand circuit and rebuilt it with nigels sump and the M21 pump-Sorted!!

I'm liking the sound of this.
Direct bolt on mod?

I'm interested in hearing a bit more too.

Will it work with a std sump, or only one with an altered sump bowl??

I realise I'm brand new around here but if the M21 is the 2.4 diesel that was fitted to the e30 in europe, then if all else fails an M21 sump should have all the right clearances yeah?

Straight bolt on mod

Jason

N00b wrote:I realise I'm brand new around here but if the M21 is the 2.4 diesel that was fitted to the e30 in europe, then if all else fails an M21 sump should have all the right clearances yeah?

Correct, but try finding a 2nd hand one

How does upping the oil pressure stop starvation?

It is a new one on me.

tomson wrote:

N00b wrote:I realise I'm brand new around here but if the M21 is the 2.4 diesel that was fitted to the e30 in europe, then if all else fails an M21 sump should have all the right clearances yeah?

Correct, but try finding a 2nd hand one

Let me guess.
Either stupid money new, or completely unavailable?

Jon_Bmw wrote:How does upping the oil pressure stop starvation?

It is a new one on me.

I'm new to the BMW specific side of things, but perhaps a baffled sump would be a better solution?

N00b wrote:

tomson wrote:

N00b wrote:I realise I'm brand new around here but if the M21 is the 2.4 diesel that was fitted to the e30 in europe, then if all else fails an M21 sump should have all the right clearances yeah?

Correct, but try finding a 2nd hand one

Let me guess.
Either stupid money new, or completely unavailable?

Knowing BMW you will be over, or very close to four figures for a new one, and not readily available 2nd hand as there werent many made and only a handfull ended up over here....

M21 oil punp is still available according to real oem

Costs just the same as an M20 one apparently

The big sump stops starvation, and the oil pump makes sure it gets to were it needs to go as the engine is under more load than normal for a longer time.

Jason

[quote="e21Jason"]The big sump stops starvation, and the oil pump makes sure it gets to were it needs to go as the engine is under more load than normal for a longer time.

What he said!
the oil pump from memory cost about £150 or less took a week to arrive from germany ordered from Syntner

This will be one of our winter jobs. Thanks for the advice.

Just a thought, but what effect would over-filling the sump with oil have for track use?

May get smokey...

Yep less than 150 from BMW, we will be doing this as mentioned.

fieldl wrote:How difficult is it to rig up a oil temp guage?

The easisest way I've heard of an on M20 is to use an E36 oil temp sensor as the sump plug and wire in an electronic gauge to suit.

How much of an increase in max pressure with the m21 pump? M20 is 3.5bar IIRC. I thought the pressure releif valve was seperate on these and controlled max pressure?

e301988325i wrote:

fieldl wrote:How difficult is it to rig up a oil temp guage?

The easisest way I've heard of an on M20 is to use an E36 oil temp sensor as the sump plug and wire in an electronic gauge to suit.

How much of an increase in max pressure with the m21 pump? M20 is 3.5bar IIRC. I thought the pressure releif valve was seperate on these and controlled max pressure?

pressure relief valve is built into the filter housing on an m20.

I think I would prefer to look at a baffled sump of some sort personally

billgatese30 wrote:pressure relief valve is built into the filter housing on an m20.

I think I would prefer to look at a baffled sump of some sort personally

10psi per 1000rpm is a good guide.

Filter housing? pics diagram??

billgatese30 wrote:I think I would prefer to look at a baffled sump of some sort personally

+1.
It's a tried and tested solution (I'm just surprised I haven't found anyone making them off the shelf).

N00b wrote:

billgatese30 wrote:I think I would prefer to look at a baffled sump of some sort personally

+1.
It's a tried and tested solution (I'm just surprised I haven't found anyone making them off the shelf).

I have often thought about it but have never had the space/spare cash to have a spare bottom end and a few spare sumps to cut up to make some master templates from. I even thought about making steel sumps whilst I was there to make them more impact resistant. Alas, time/space/cash are always an issue and I've always got more than one project on the go at a time as it is.

e301988325i wrote:

billgatese30 wrote:pressure relief valve is built into the filter housing on an m20.

I think I would prefer to look at a baffled sump of some sort personally

10psi per 1000rpm is a good guide.

Filter housing? pics diagram??

This is the best diagram I have unfortunatley. It is held in place under spring pressure and retained by part 7. It limits the amount of pressure just prior to the filter and vents any excess to the sump.



I would imagine that the m21 pickup is used so that it reaches deeper into the deeper oil pan on the modified sump, which in itself helps negate the problem of the oil climbing the sidewall of the standard sump and starving the pickup of a suitable supply.

billgatese30 wrote:

N00b wrote:

billgatese30 wrote:I think I would prefer to look at a baffled sump of some sort personally

+1.
It's a tried and tested solution (I'm just surprised I haven't found anyone making them off the shelf).

I have often thought about it but have never had the space/spare cash to have a spare bottom end and a few spare sumps to cut up to make some master templates from. I even thought about making steel sumps whilst I was there to make them more impact resistant. Alas, time/space/cash are always an issue and I've always got more than one project on the go at a time as it is.

A skid plate should protect the sump from impact, but I am surprised that nobody is offering larger capacity, baffled sumps for the M20 at least.

Well, the plan was a deeper sump with baffles made of stainless and all TIG'd up so that it would take a hell of a clout before damaging unlike the standard cast ali ones.

I currently can't be arsed and have other things on the go now which take up less space and I can practically test out on my own cars, this is where I would struggle as my 325 is my everyday car, not my track car.

billgatese30 wrote:Well, the plan was a deeper sump with baffles made of stainless and all TIG'd up so that it would take a hell of a clout before damaging unlike the standard cast ali ones.

I currently can't be arsed and have other things on the go now which take up less space and I can practically test out on my own cars, this is where I would struggle as my 325 is my everyday car, not my track car.

Sadly I can't weld, but given the number of "handy" people in here I'd have thought someone would be knocking something like this up. I think there's a definite market for 'em, don't you?

I can TIG weld and can get plenty of stuff laser cut/water jet too so thats not a problem. I do however need some free scrap blocks/sumps that I can use as templates and a unit to be able to store them in and work on them, the rest should be easy. unfortunately I don't have the space/cash to do the development I can do the fab work at home, but i have no storage spave for blocks etc.

billgatese30 wrote:I can TIG weld and can get plenty of stuff laser cut/water jet too so thats not a problem. I do however need some free scrap blocks/sumps that I can use as templates and a unit to be able to store them in and work on them, the rest should be easy. unfortunately I don't have the space/cash to do the development I can do the fab work at home, but i have no storage spave for blocks etc.

Perhaps modifying standard sumps would be an easier option?
That way you wouldn't need to keep a block as the flange would be the same.

Is there enough clearance with the sump in place to add a couple of "wings"?

Thats what I'd need the block for, so I could swing the crank and see how much clearance I have and where I need to get around the pickup etc. I'd only need one, and then a few old sumps to use as trial pieces/templates etc. But then ideally I would need an m40 bottom end, m42 bottom end and an m20 bottom end so I could cover most of our needs.