Any relatively simple ways to quell understeer on track?

[MJJ_ZX6RR]

So I appreciate this is a little like asking for advice to improve John Prescott's 200m hurdles time, but hear me out

M30'd soft top, standard 15" BBS with Pirelli P6000s, Bilstein/Eibach bouncy bits.

On track, the front end was the first to struggle for grip. A bootful of throttle would even that situation out, but the understeer was definately the limiting factor stopping faster progress.

Any relatively simple tips for helping front end grip? I want the car to remain standard looking, so the 15" BBS stay. Better tyres? Uprated anti-roll bars? Tweaking the camber?

Appreciate any tips,

Martin.

[billgatese30]

If you have adjustable roll bars then stiffen the rear one at the back but make sure you soften it up again for road use. Changing camber etc means spending lots of money on adjustable top mounts etc and extra work to change and setup between road and track setups, its not ideal. Your other option is to drive the car differently. Firstly get an instructor in with you, that will gain you more time than any mod to the car. Then you can look at things like trail braking etc to se the car into the corner more appropriately.

[Speedtouch]

How about fitting a set of M3 offset wishbone lollipop bushes?

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ipopBushes

[MillRat]

Some simple fixes include (in addition to those already mentioned);

Put a set of spacers on the front to slightly increase the front track (relative to the rear),

Increase the rear ride hight slightly with respect to the front (or lower the front),

Wider tyres,

Increase front tyre pressure or lower rear tyre pressure, and

Put more weight in the rear or the car (if you can).

[Brian28]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Camber-Plates-E30 ... 3368b94b19

Look really good value and will help a lot, but will be a bit of time adjusting between road and track. You won't be able to use the max neg settings, as the spring will hit the inside of the turret first.

[m8782538]

Tyres will help, most important thing on your car, its the only thing that keeps you on the road/ track, better compound tyres will give you more grip, warmer tyres will give you more grip over cold.

Then really looking at ARB, Camber suspension etc.

[m8782538]

The front end is pushing out due to the weight in the front of the car, cheapest way is to get some weight in the boot, subs, books, anything really.

[MJJ_ZX6RR]

Thanks all, plenty for me to think about here.

I am at a bit of a decision point really. I cannot decide whether spending a bit more money (brakes, tyres, suspension set-up) on my basically unsuitable car is wise, or do it properly and buy a Caterham/Westfield type car.

Keeping the E30 *and* a caterham is not possible, but to be honest, the kids rarely come out in the E30 these days so having a four seater is not strictly needed any more.

Decisions, decisions

Martin.

[MJJ_ZX6RR]

Your other option is to drive the car differently. Firstly get an instructor in with you, that will gain you more time than any mod to the car. Then you can look at things like trail braking etc to se the car into the corner more appropriately.

I have to say this is wise advice. I used the services of one of Castle Combe's instructors, and he made me a lot smoother - not sure if it was any faster though.

Previously, I had always trail braked all the way up to the apex, with the obvious challenge this presents in balancing braking effort against turn-in. The instructor was recommending getting all the braking done prior to turn in, then turn in on a neutral throttle. This was obviously much kinder to the car, and I had to fight the car much less, but I only timed myself prior to instruction so cannot comment on improvement, if any.

The previous method of trail braking, getting a little out of shape and torturing tyres was much more fun however.

Martin.

[m8782538]

thats the way to do it, you need to be off the brakes and have downshifted before you turn in, then enter on neutral throttle but need some positive throttle by the time you hit the apex then feed the throttle pedal from the apex so you are full throttle just before you straighten up (too early and the backend will step out......good old RWD ).

Smooth is fast. Anytime all 4 wheels are not touching the tarmac, you loose traction and time, any tyre squeal looses traction and time. smooth and slow and then you pickup the speed on each lap, 3-4 laps and you will be going a lot faster, smoother and braking later, carrying faster entry and exit speeds, most time is lots braking for corners.

[billgatese30]

Your other option is to drive the car differently. Firstly get an instructor in with you, that will gain you more time than any mod to the car. Then you can look at things like trail braking etc to se the car into the corner more appropriately.

I have to say this is wise advice. I used the services of one of Castle Combe's instructors, and he made me a lot smoother - not sure if it was any faster though.

Previously, I had always trail braked all the way up to the apex, with the obvious challenge this presents in balancing braking effort against turn-in. The instructor was recommending getting all the braking done prior to turn in, then turn in on a neutral throttle. This was obviously much kinder to the car, and I had to fight the car much less, but I only timed myself prior to instruction so cannot comment on improvement, if any.

The previous method of trail braking, getting a little out of shape and torturing tyres was much more fun however.

Martin.

In the earlier stages of track driving then yes, its important to learn to be smooth and that usually means thinking about breaking it down into steps, brake, shift, balance throttle and then turn towards the apex and power through the corner and be smooth on the exit.

Trail braking helps primarily with bends where understeer on turn in is a problem (rather than at the apex or on the exit when you apply the power) and can help quell it so that the correct apex speed can be achieved, but it won't always work on every corner.

If you are smooth then as someone said above, you can practice and lap after lap you will get quicker, if your rough, then it doesn't matter how hard you try, the car will fight back and you will not get quicker.

trail braking isn't about getting sideways into a corner either, it is a very fine balance where you can just say feel it kill the understeer, but if you need to turn the wheel any less than you would to get around the corner with no understeer/oversteer then you've over done it (opposite lock on the way in means you have got it very wrong, but it is fun ), you should just feel the car "tuck in" rather than wash out, but it should not feel like oversteer. It is hard to explain and like playing guitar or heel and toe shifting, you just feel when it is right and everything seems to fall into place and feel natural. It is a very fine line and to begin with I would worry more about being smooth and building speed/pace, rather than trying to master trail braking, but it is a cheap option versus expensive car mods which must be changed between road and track.


Also, don't forget if you add ballast to the boot etc, make sure it is reasonably secured otherwise it will go from side to side on each corner.

[harry_p]

the easiest way would probably be to get rid of the godawfull pirellis from the front!

and as said, m3 offset front arm bushes will give more castor which gives more negative camber when turning, without the problems you get running more static camber on a road car.

a cabby is never going to be the finest handling thing, if you dont already have one a front strut brace might be an idea to give the shell the best chance of containing the forces.

[Jhonno]

Get rid of those wank P6000's for a start!

To be fair, if you are serious about some track work, you need to flog the old girl and go with the Seven type toy..

[matty38]

If your suffering with understeer and and you have 2way adjustable dampers then stiffen the back of the car up by 4 clicks and soften the front by 2 clicks (clochwise=harder)(anticlockwise =softer). If you dont have these luxurys then either adjust the rear anti roll bar if you can or put a bigger one on and see how that goes if you are still struggling then get some toyo r888 and change the pitch of the car. Have you got adjustable top mounts? if so then adjust the front canber by about 3 degrees (negative) and 1mm toe in and that will sort your problem.

Good luck dude

[Jhonno]

To be fair, if it is a track car you want it straight ahead or toe out.. It will have a tendancy to eat tyres though.

[MJJ_ZX6RR]

Thanks for the continued advice gents, really appreciate it.

I am just beginning to realise, that as with most things in life, if you want something to excel at two very different roles (road use, and track use), then the wallet needs to be open a lot.

I absolutely destroyed the brakes during that first track day, rears are down to the 1mm and fronts down to 2mm. Disks are very near their service limits, and the fronts show signs of scoring. So, disks/pads all round needed. I think I will upgrade to WMS kit, but then where do I stop? Uprated ARBs? Adjustable top mounts? Another set of wheels with grippy track tyres? All of this would be essentially hamstrung by the fact that the base car is a boat anchored walrus with no roof.

The 'sensible' option is to buy a dedicated track car.

Expensive game this tracking cars lark eh?

Martin.

[Jhonno]

You cannot have something that will excel at both.. One or t'other.. What works on the road, won't work on the track and visa versa.

As you have noted, you have far from an ideal base to work with. I would keep it as a fun road car and buy something else for the track.

[Ziggy]

I'm no expert so I won't pretend to be, but what I can say is that this:

Get rid of those **** P6000's for a start!

...is undoubtedly a good starting point!

[m8782538]

defo ditch the P6000, i am supprised pirelli still sell those, they are totally useless, rather have my avon ZV3's on my car than P6000, if going pirelli, stick with P Zero (however not that great in the wet) and forget the rest.

[GeoffBob]

The 'sensible' option is to buy a dedicated track car.

That would be wise. It's no fun rolling a convertible. Sedan with cage is best option. Plus seat, harness, fire extinguisher etc. Safety first imo.

[UweM3]

defo ditch the P6000, i am supprised pirelli still sell those, they are totally useless, rather have my avon ZV3's on my car than P6000, if going pirelli, stick with P Zero (however not that great in the wet) and forget the rest.

hmmm, got them on the mile muncher and can't say anything bad. Sure not good for trackdays.

[matty38]

To be fair, if it is a track car you want it straight ahead or toe out.. It will have a tendancy to eat tyres though.

A road car should be straight ahead not a race/ track car. you do not worry about tyre wear when racing or track day if you did then there wouldnt be any point in racing. toe in gives you that sharp turn in but no consistency through the corner which is when you need the correct pressures and dampening control....

[m8782538]

Also a front splitter helps front downforce and helps grip levels, will reduce the amount of understeer you can feel.

[Jhonno]

To be fair, if it is a track car you want it straight ahead or toe out.. It will have a tendancy to eat tyres though.

A road car should be straight ahead not a race/ track car. you do not worry about tyre wear when racing or track day if you did then there wouldnt be any point in racing. toe in gives you that sharp turn in but no consistency through the corner which is when you need the correct pressures and dampening control....

A road car shouldn't be straight ahead.. They are set to toe in to maximise the life of the tyres. I hated my e30 set with toe in, it did not handle. I ran it straight, however it did start to use the inner edges of the tyres. Toe out is a race car setup, where tyre life is not of concern.

[UweM3]

To be fair, if it is a track car you want it straight ahead or toe out.. It will have a tendancy to eat tyres though.

A road car should be straight ahead not a race/ track car. you do not worry about tyre wear when racing or track day if you did then there wouldnt be any point in racing. toe in gives you that sharp turn in but no consistency through the corner which is when you need the correct pressures and dampening control....

A road car shouldn't be straight ahead.. They are set to toe in to maximise the life of the tyres. I hated my e30 set with toe in, it did not handle. I ran it straight, however it did start to use the inner edges of the tyres. Toe out is a race car setup, where tyre life is not of concern.

looks like he is mixig up FWD and RWD

[Jhonno]

I did wonder that..

[Black_Potato]

Assuming you have the same 4 brands/ages/pressures/sizes of tyres on each 4 corners changing them to another brand will make very little if any difference to the balance. You will just get more or less grip but the balance will remain largely the same, i.e. a car that under steers will still do so at the limit.

Trail braking, or more specificlaly weight distribution on corner entry is a big thing to work on, beyond that some camber or roll stiffness change like the rear ARB or uprated springs would help.

Simple things you should check is tyre pressures and general toe settings, they are both things you can experiment with at very little cost. You could also get somebody else more experianced to drive the car and let them give you their opinion, that would help confirm if its you or the car.

[matty38]

To be fair, if it is a track car you want it straight ahead or toe out.. It will have a tendancy to eat tyres though.

A road car should be straight ahead not a race/ track car. you do not worry about tyre wear when racing or track day if you did then there wouldnt be any point in racing. toe in gives you that sharp turn in but no consistency through the corner which is when you need the correct pressures and dampening control....

A road car shouldn't be straight ahead.. They are set to toe in to maximise the life of the tyres. I hated my e30 set with toe in, it did not handle. I ran it straight, however it did start to use the inner edges of the tyres. Toe out is a race car setup, where tyre life is not of concern.

I stand corrected sorry jhonno i put the car on the scales and lasered it tonight i have 1mm toe out now and no im not mixing it up with fwd just a mistake. i appologise.

[Jhonno]

No worries.. We all get confused at times

I think FWD's are run toe in though..

[MillRat]

No worries.. We all get confused at times

I think FWD's are run toe in though..

That would make them darty and tram line worse than they already do. Neutral or toe-out at the front always.