what is the max power you cn get from an e30 325i

[dph500]

I am having my engine tuned for racing, want it to be reliable but what is the max I can get? I will be changing cam, gas flowing, lightened flywheel, new pistons etc etc.

I would hope to get 230hp +

Can't turbo or superharge, so please no stories of 600hp+ and also I can't changing the fuel injection (exept for a chip) to throttle bodies or carbs.

anyone done something similar?
thanks

[kimbo]

What regs are you building to?
I think you'll struggle to get over 200 bhp on the std manifold, even with bbtb, without some SERIOUS headwork (and matching pistons) like the old Griffin Motorsport motors.
May be some mileage in fabricating a more efficient plenum / manifold and using oversized throttle body if the regs allow.
Our motor (ex Griffin Motorsport) reputedly put out just over 200 whp (say 225 - 230 at the crank) on triple Webers and we're hoping to see 250 at the crank on bodies when it eventually gets rebuilt. No bits available off the shelf though, everything is special (pistons machined from Peugeot blanks, for instance).

Kim.

[dph500]

cheers Kimbo, I am going to enter the 'pre 93 touring cars', looks very similar to TTRS I think but maybe with more effort behind it (could be wrong). I think we can change inlet and exhaust manifolds, infact we can change almost everything apart from upping capacity and turbos etc. I will look into a bigger throttle body. what is bbtb (take it last part is throttle body, what is the 'bb'?).

what do you think are the restricting factors with this engine? Also do you run a lightweight flywheel and what differenc does it make and what system are you using or your exhaust?

Can I ask what series you race in and who does your engine. If you are 'pre 93' racing you might want to stop giving me tips .

sorry to bombard with questions.

D

[agent006]

For reference, my 325 is making a reliable (and nicely road mannered) 187bhp with a Schrick 288/288 and HotTuning manifold. Mapped by shepsEvo on Dastek. This is with standard valves and springs (cheapskate) and a terrible cheap Powerflow exhaust. He did get it to 195 on one dyno run during mapping but it wasn't pleasant. Power wasn't dropping off much at redline either.

BBTB is Big Bore throttle body.

I reckon you could see over 200 with not a huge amount of effort if you do everything properly.

[handpaper]

Recommendations from an expert in this thread.

[dph500]

agent006 - thank you. I reckon 200bhp should be the minimum I should try and go for and try and push for some more. I will keep you osted when the work is done.

handpaper - good thread, a little over my head but still very interesting. Shame the guy does not really talk about max hp he thinks he can achieve. I just need a benchmark of what is posible.

d

[miniblob]

Just for info - I did every 'bolt on' mod on my original 2.5 M20 - including BTB 6 branch and straight through 'zaust and MAF conversion.
Had it on the rollers and mapped to about 185bhp!!

Didn't get as far as a cam on that one, head gasket gave up!!! Cam was pretty much the only easy/obvious other mod to do - not sure how much that would give, but may take you near 200ish??

I've heard that over 200 is hard/expensive to get, so i've gone 2.7 now!!

[Fushion_Julz]

If you can change pretty much everything, then go for triple 45dcoe webers and a early type distributor system from an E21 323

With a decent cam and some light headwork you must be able to get at least 200bhp at the flywheel...But balance the bottom end so you can rev it to 8000 rpm

If not, or it all seems a bit too hard, then go for a M10 engine on carbs and hairy cam...I know you can get 200bhp from one of those as my 2002 had that power on 50dco carbs...

[JimmyC]

I am going to enter the 'pre 93 touring cars', looks very similar to TTRS I think but maybe with more effort behind it (could be wrong).

Not sure what you mean there?

CTCRC run through BARC hence entries are almost double TTRS. TTRS is run by the drivers for the drivers, so no one getting paid a salary. Probably fair to say you have it the wrong way round.

TTRS/PBMW have lead the charge for cheaper race entries/full grids in the last 2 years, with many others trying to follow suit.

We're at Snet at the weekend if you fancy a trip out, i'll even supply you dinner and a beer sat night ;)

Drop me a mail if you want to know more jimmyc@pbmwc.co.uk

[e21Jason]

If you can change pretty much everything, then go for triple 45dcoe webers and a early type distributor system from an E21 323

My e21 with the above set up and a six branch makes 186 on a stock 325i engine, and with it over fueling and the timing less than perfect

But to build a hot m20 it depends on how much you want to spend

Taking the bottom end, you could fit a crank scrapper and a baffled large capacity sump as m20’s suffer from oil starvation on long bends
Also uprate oiling/cooling with an oil pump from an m21 diesel along with an m20 tropical spec pump.
You can get race spec bearing along with lighting and balancing the bottom end.
You can get either after market rods or use m50 rods which are lighter and longer
Forged piston at least 10:1 compression
Arp bolts
Comtec gasket
Then you get on to the head.
Some people prefer to port the 320 head but as the 325 885 head flows about 25% better i would start with a 885 head
Again some people reckon it’s not worth it as it is expensive for what you get the only back to back flow figures I have seen are for a 1k porting job which gained about 10% peak flow.
After that you can get +1mm over sized valves with thin stems and matching guides
Alloy rocker arms
Behive springs
And a decent cam about 300deg if you have to keep the stock manifold and a vernier pulley for the timing set up.
Stick on a BTB manifold, custom remap, lightweight fly wheel/clutch and uprated rad

That will cost about 5-6k and get close to your 230bhp

Personally I would just go for m50 rods, forged pistons, big cam, btb manifold a bit of exhaust porting, lightweight flywheel custom remap and spend the rest on handling a 3k suspension set up will be faster than the extra 3k on an engine.

Or find an alternate series the Kumho or the lma saloons etc.

[dph500]

e21 Jason - great, just the advice i was after. How much hp do you think you wll get on your 'cheaper/m50 rods' option. 230hp sounds nice, but 6k does not. Do you think 230hp is reliable? I am happy to 'freshen up' the engine at the end of the series but want it to be reliable apart fom that. I am going to fit gaz coilovers, i thought they would be a good mix of not too much/suitable for my level of experience (so far just lots of track days, no racing) would you go for more exensive coilovers?

As for the TTRS v's pre 93, yes I could be wrong. And I will be looking into each. Did not mean to affend anyone.

D

[kimbo]

Me again
I've not looked recently, but I think the main difference between TTRS and Pre'93 regs is that you can (at present) run multi carbs in TTRS, whereas in '93 you can only run as many chokes as originally fitted, whether carbs or throttle bodies.
You will have noticed that there is a bit of 'history' between the two series, and some of the people are a bit protective. TTRS was an offshoot of Pre'93, started with the aim of giving lower costs to the driver. The regs were more or less identical initially, but have changed a bit since. Still very similar, though. Some drivers are doing both series, or at least part of each, if you see what I mean.
We will be doing Thunder Saloons / Tin Tops as the regs are a bit looser and suit the spec of our car better. Probably give it a run out at a hillclimb as well, just for the craic.
As far as your motor is concerned, if you want to keep costs reasonable, I would clean up the ports and shorten the valve guides to improve flow as much as poss (the head flows pretty well as std, or so I believe). If you fancy it, get the oversized valves, but I dont know how much benefit you'll get from 1mm (no room for any more). You can always open out the throat area behind the valve seats to maximise flow. I think I'd go for a 288 cam if using a single body - I know using long duration cams can play havoc with pressure pulses in the plenum / body area on some motors, but not 100% sure about the M20!
Get some wellied up rockers if you're reckoning on running over 7000rpm, or be prepared for breakages. You could stress relieve / shot peen the originals, but again I dont know if this has any benefit.
All pretty much as E21 Jason has already said, really, so apologies to him for the repetition.
BTW since you asked, the flywheel on ours is a featherweight device and it has an AP Racing twin plate clutch. Bit extreme really, but it's how it came to us. The exhaust manifold is a Hartge 6 branch, dont know anything more about the rest of the system.
We do our own engineering, both engine and chassis. If I can be of any help, let me know. Even if we do end up in the same race series, I know that Dan (my Son and the driver) likes a good race, so we have no problems with sharing info. I'm not clever enough to have any 'secret weapons'.

Kim

Kim.

[dph500]

kim,

that is very very helpful, thank you. I have not really decided what series I would like to run in yet, it was TTRS and now I am leaning towards pre 93 (i saw it in a magazine called Race and track cars) maybe just because I also like the older cars and I think you run on the same day as them (don't know who runs with TTRS, but think it is PBMW). But saying that I would love to run treble webbers, I have just had a look at the TTRS regs and it is not clear.

Anyway, as you say I will probably do a few races in each the first year just to see.

Is Thunder Saloons / Tin Tops much faster and more competitive - would I be better of sticking to TTRS or pre 93 for my first few seasons? I the regs are looser, I take it the cars are much faster? What are the grid sizes like?

best

D

[JimmyC]

TTRS is the sister series to PBMW set up by Project 8 Racing the club that runs both TTRS and PBMW. Its run by the drivers and is the same group of people from SELOC that started PBMW in 2004.

We used to run with the CTCRC but they couldn't/wouldn't offer what we wanted, cheaper racing at the best circuits in the UK.

In the first year P8R slashed entries form £210 per race to £120 per race with P8R, and this season we have further reduced race entries to £100.

Thats the "history", and I think we may have put some peoples noses out by succeeding where others failed/couldn't do.

We have a strong 325 field in TTRS and a couple of 318 is' in build for next year, with one out this week.

Both regs are very similar, the biggest difference apart from cost is probably the social side P8R is a bit more lively in the paddock and of an evening. Like at snet, with the hog roast, and a club supplied BBQ at every race including lunch and breakkie- you just need to bring the beers

Like I said get along at the weekend and see for yourself if you can

[dph500]

jimmy C - thanks, always up for a hog roast. Will come along and check it out.

I take it you race a 325i i the TTRS? Can I ask what kind of HP you would need to be competitive. I am trying to gauge is how much ££ you need to throw at your engine not to have mud kicked in your face. I.e if most cars are running 175 or over 200 for example.

cheers

[fowler]

in this race series can you change the engine management ????? as ther is ways of getting 200 ponies out of a 325i

[dph500]

fowler - if you mean can you 'chip', yes I think you can. But I find the engine regs quite complex to read and understand.

[JimmyC]

I run in PBMW, but am one of the organisers of P8R ;)

If you come along at the weekend, i'll point you in the direction Dave Kear who knows pretty much everything there is to know about e30's and e30 race cars. He'll be able to tell you what will give you what etc

You can change the ecu, DTA seems to be the popular choice on the hi performing e30's/e36's

If you want someone to talk you through the regs John Willcocks will be there, not racing his M3 this weekend so will have lots of time to chat (he wrote the TTRS regs) and answer any questions.

I'm in car 34 in my avatar, ask anyone in TTRS/PBMW if you cant find me they will point me out

[dph500]

Great, will do. But have just been travelling back from France so will be another race meeting.

[dph500]

dta ecu

[dph500]

ignore last - sorry

[kimbo]

I am trying to gauge is how much ££ you need to throw at your engine not to have mud kicked in your face. I.e if most cars are running 175 or over 200 for example.

Apologies for delay in responding, but was at Brands all weekend, then had to do some work to pay the shopping bill. Anyway-
If you run pre'93 with a 2.5 motor in class D (up to 2 litre) with the 2 valve per cylinder equalisation, I reckon you could build a competitive motor for around £2000. (I'm assuming that you'll build it yourself, if not, add another grand).
Keep the bottom end pretty standard (bit of a balance if you're flush) and use h/c pistons (the early ones).
Cam up to what you feel is right - the price doesn't vary that much between manufacturers / profiles and get the head skimmed and the ports cleaned up as previously described. If you need new valves, get the bigger ones, if you dont, dont (if you see what I mean). They're not that expensive, but 12 of them mount the costs up!
Big bore throttle body of your choice and a 6 branch exhaust manifold (get a secondhand BTB or Hartge - wont look as pretty as a new stainless one, but I reckon the power will be better)!
Build your motor with CARE, making sure that all the tolerances are right and that all the various bits match up correctly i.e. 'blueprinting'. (When I took ours apart after it blew up, you wouldn't believe how bad the match was between the inlet mani and the head, and this from an engine which was dyno'd at over 200 hp at the rear wheels and supposedly not touched in the meantime).
I reckon that little lot should get you around 190 - 195 at the flywheel and should be enough.

If you go TTRS, I know that one or more of the 325's are running triple DCOE's and as such, POTENTIALLY are producing upwards of 220 at the flywheel - dont know if they are, but they could be.

Now, here's the important bit
THE BIGGEST PERFORMANCE BOOST WILL COST YOU NOTHING.
Well, only time anyway.
ADD LIGHTNESS.
Cut out anything you dont need, anything the regs will allow you to bin, bin it!
You have to retain the glass in both of the above series, so nothing to be gained there, but its incredible how much weight you can get out. Ours was around 920kg ready to roll, with all the glass still in it. It will be a bit heavier now, as the cage is now somewhat stronger, but I still reckon 950 or less. Depending on what you weigh, that should see you down on the minimum weight for the class, with possibly even a bit of scope for ballast to even out weight distribution (if you do ballast, keep the weight low and inside the axle centre lines if possible).
Decent set of coilovers front and rear and solid bushes all round is the next step, and fashion some kind of adjustable link to your ARB's. You shouldn't need anything special in this department, if you get your spring rates right. Ground Control or similar rose jointed and adjustable top mounts is the only other must have, although you might have to get creative at the back to get camber under control once you've lowered it to the optimum ride height (thats not NECESSARILY the minimum, you understand).

This post seems to have turned into the 'Boys Own Book of Racing Cars' so I'll stop now but I think that my message is not to worry too much about the numbers you see on the dyno, build the car right, make it bulletproof, reliable and drive it properly . You will pick up results.

Kim

edit: Forget to mention, but I think that you can run stand alone management in either of the above series, which if you can afford it is a big bonus. We'll be running a Haltech system off of our previous Golf turbo project, but we'll be in Classic Thunder, anyway so different regs.

[dph500]

kimbo - great post, read and taken on board. Thanks

[Paynts]

hey Kim hows it going? my car continues to give me a few probs - loose crank pulleybolt causing woodruff key to shear. oops!

anyway just to add a warning note to others reading this thread , my car has a cat cam 284 a cleaned up head balanced bottom end and standard pistons and compression ratio and is also running a old weber alpha ECU on ITBS

with the old wild cam it would touch 169 hp at the wheels or 197 est FWHP

since I put the new cam in I'm down to 189 FWHP

but on the whole ive got more usable torque and power

however the £1100 spent on having the head ported and inlet tract manifolds matched I think was largely wasted money ( i already had the 885 head)

I'm now wondering if the cam is too mild or if stories of 210+FWHP for a 2.5 are mostly just that,stories

not doubting kims figures for his car BTW

[Fushion_Julz]

I know of a very reliable 2.7 M20 running around 260 FWHP on slide throttles.

I know that there used to be a chap running an E21 with a 2.5 M20 on triple IDAs and distributor making 210+ at the fly....

I suppose it all depends on what the regs are and what you are allowed along with how much you can afford...
Personally I'd go for the reduced weight of a 4cyl M10 or S14 seeing as 200bhp isn't too hard to get. In fact 200bhp is about what you get from a standard, fresh S14 on AFM and 46mm TBs.

I know they aren't exactly the cheapest motor, but the potential for a bit of improvement is vast, whereas you'd be in big money areas to get much more (that 210-220) out of an M20.

Paynts:
My old 325i (road car) with standard 160K motor and custom map from Chipped UK on standard ECU and AFM was making 189 (est) at the fly with 160bhp at the wheels...

[kimbo]

Paynts:
Hi, I'm fine, broke as usual though. How are you doing?
Your engine is a bit of a mystery, really. By rights it should make better numbers.
Its got to be down to the CR you're running. If the bangs aren't big enough, no amount of porting or itb's will make it right. On bodies, I would be running 300 degree cam or thereabouts, with decent peak lift, obviously. Perhaps someone who knows could comment on the Catcam you've got. I do know that some of the Peugeot guys using Catcams are a bit miffed that they're not making the numbers for them - different thing, I know.
I've got to say I think that I would sling the Alpha management over the nearest hedge and get an Omex or Emerald. At least that way you could be confident of the mapping. All comes down to the old equation, though - how fast do you want to go? how much have you got to spend?

'Ours' was dyno'd at 203 at the wheels (so say 230 at the fly) on the Thor dyno when it ran in the Kumho's. I assume (hope) that what we're doing to it can only improve on this figure.
The pistons are nothing like anything you could buy from BMW, though and the head has had extensive reworking in the combustion chamber to give clearance for the pistons, giving much more of a hemispherical shape. Havent worked out the static CR but looking at it I would guess at 11:1 minimum, possibly more.
If I remember to take the camera to the workshop next time I go, and if I can figure out the picture tool thingy, I'll post up some images to illustrate what I mean.
Once we've got it back together and dyno'd and assuming it makes good power, I guess we could think about getting some sets of pistons made for others. Wouldn't be cheap though - I reckon £1600+ at todays exchange rates, plus the necessary head work. So for a track day car, better off investing in an E36M3 motor (S52?) and putting that in. Or an LS2. Or a 13B rotary. Or a 5.0 litre Rover V8.
Doh! Now you've got me started!
Good luck
Kim

[Paynts]

Hi fusion those are some impressive figures the 260 hp off the 2.7 what rpm was that?

also the 189 you got off your motor 19 hp extra seems very good off a standard cam

maybe I need to have someone take another look at my motor!?

[Fushion_Julz]

Not sure on the RPM that it made the figure at, but I think it redlines at 7500-8000

The E30 I had was a very strong engine to start with...It made right on book figures without the Chipped UK map