E30 Zone

i'm now driven to distraction by light swirl marks and tap water marks on my paintwork. i've been reading quite a lot regarding paint prep (especially polished bliss) and c76jon's information and have made a plan:

(bear in mind car lives outside in a city roughly a mile from the sea, i don't have a hose pipe or power to the car)

- ditch sponges and chamois and buy the following for washing and drying:

1) a decent size watering can for rinsing
2) lambswool wash mitt, meguires gold class shampoo and heavyweight waffle weave microfibre towell or drying towell.

with a one off application of meguires:

scratch x
step 1 (this is lightly abrasive paint polish right?)
step 2 (this is glaze right?)

applied using foam applicator pads and removed with a plush microfibre towell.

now all of the above is available from halfords and will set me back sixty something quid. this just leaves choice of finishing wax. i'd like to stick with meguires as it's readily available and mid-priced but it's not clearly labelled. i'd also prefer to use a synthetic sealant or a blended sealant rather than a straight carnauba product - so which meguires bottle is this? if at all...

any and all comments welcomed. i'm not into zaino or other expensive territory just yet for a car that's not garaged.

cheers - paul

Just run it through the car wash

I use the Meguires 3 step stuff, seems good to me! I'd love to invest loads of time and money into polishing up my cars, but like you they sit outside all weather and get covered in tree pollen

Plus i haven't got my new car yet... just a space on the road !

You may want to clay it before doing anything else, if you start using abrasives or any other polish prior to doing so you may end up inducing more swirls.

I am a mere beginner though so stand to be corrected... hopefully will post some pictures of my efforts later.

Cheers

How would i "clay" my car?? What do you use?

ok
heres my view

firstly if clay or not it will not introduce new swirls
clay removes contaminants from paint that washing doesnt

small bits of metal that lodges in paint surface
tree sap
tar
insect remains etc etc

it is amazing what it achieves.leaves paint very very smooth

i kind of understand your thoughts about not using zaino because car lives outside
but in fact that is all the reason to use zaino
its the most durable polish/sealant out there

no matter what the elments it will protect far longer than anything else

you are right with not going the wax route
wax is simply not very durable against elements

leave a tub in sun and see what happens
it will offer no more protection on the car

wax gives good results without a doubt but they diminish quickly and with outside living thats not for you

a synthetic sealant is what you want as you have correctly identified

personally i wouldnt go lambswool mitt
just my opinion after experience
they arent the most durable things
use a microfibre mitt
debris wont lodge as bad as in lambswool which can create more swirls and m/f washes far better

iam not a fan of the sponge applicators either.m/f are far better and they can be washed well

again this is all my opinion

meguiars make some ok stuff which give good results

if you want m/f wash mitts or m/f applicators send me a pm

your results are all in the prep

the more time you take with this the better the results you will get


as for how do i clay my car
well halfords do the meguiars kit off the shelf

pretty good with lube provided
keep panel well lubed and keep turning the clay you will be amazed what comes off and hoe different the paint will feel

all instructions with the kit

hth

john

jon and all.

thanks for the replies. i have clayed the car previously. the paintwork is already as cared for as it's possible to be using sponges and chamois' and regular polishing cloth applications of mer. it's super smooth to the touch and looks great until i get close up (especially in the sun) so i don't have to clay it.

so jon - you recommend zaino as a finishing product yes? so this would be z-3 for my standard bright red paint? does this mean that i have to use zaino products before applying this or are my meguire's plans still acceptable? (if not then which meguire's gloop is a synthetic or blended finishing product?) where are zaino products avilable in the uk?

anyone - how is meguire's scratch x classified? and is meguire's step 1 a lightly abrasive polish? and step 2 a glaze? why don't meguire's make this clear?

longevity of finish is not such an issue - i'll apply something every week if need be.

paul

ok
if you are happy to apply every week then wax is a possibility

with zaino for you i would use z3

you will need z1 aswell as this is the polish lok which is used on initial appliaction only

my advice

z3
z1
z16

and prep with what ever product you like to remove your swirls etc
zainos zpc is very very very very good at this but you can use what you wish

i also suggest using zaino car wash for after you have treated car with z3 etc as this boosts finish and is made to work with their products

it DOES make a difference.ive experimented believe me

zaino is a different league.yes its a little more costly but it goes miles.you use very very little of the stuff as you apply it very thin as less is best

look thru posts of cars and find billgates red sport
he uses zaino on the red and just look at the finish.its stunning.

john

this from meguires regarding the excat constitution of their products:

Thanks for you email. The scratchX is primarily used to remove fine swirl marks and light scratches. If you catch your finger nail in the scratch you will need to remove this by machine. The ScratchX is a diminishing abrasive, so the more you work it in the more it breaks down. You may need to go over the affected area more than once to completely remove the marks.

The paint cleaner is a chemical cleaner which is primarily used to clean the paint and remove oxidized/dead paint. The polish is a pure polish, and it has no cut. This contains the oils that feed and nourish the paint. This product will give the car a wet look.

To wax the car, it does not matter whether you use carnauba of fully synthetic waxes. As a general rule you will always achieve a better result if you wax and polish separately. We recommend the Tech Wax for dark coloured cars and the Gold Class for lighter. So in your case you should choose the NXT.

paul

watch the scratch x

on a highly polished car this will leave marks ie swirls due to abrasive properties

i know it sounds mad as its supposed to remove them but any abrasive on shiny surface will leave marks

the trick for perfect finish is to ,just as if you were sanding wood or metal,is to work down the grades until you are using really really fine stuff

same with paint

imho to get perfect finish after scratch x you need to use a finer abrasive to remove any marks left etc

interesting they make reference to polishing and waxing

people generally say they are going to polish their car etc but polishing is strictly using a really really fine abrasive that actually polishes the laquer /paint etc

waxing is adding something to the polished surface to enhance the finish gained adter polishing has been done

so the point he is making is that paint if polished correctly first will look far better after wax/sealant is applied

but in theprevious paragraph he has said that the polish is pure polish and has no abrasives????????????

if it has no abrasives then its a sealant or a wax

heres order it should be done

wash paint
clay paint
use an abrasive compound/product to remove swirls marring etc (coarser abrasive)
use a polish to remove any hazing/marring caused by swirl removal with compound (finer abrasive)
sealant/wax

john

Many people assume that waxing and polishing are synonymous. In fact, they are two different processes. Professional detailers and show-car owners know the secret to an award-winning finish is properly cleaning and polishing the surface prior to waxing.

All paints age from exposure to ultraviolet light, pollution and acid rain. Beautiful finishes gradually become dull and chalky. Waxing over these surfaces will only create a temporary gloss over dull paint. To reveal the paint's true vitality, vibrancy, and depth, it must be polished.


In the strictest sense, paint cleaners remove surface defects and swirls while a polish improves surface gloss. The lines are blurred however as many cleaners provide some polishing action and many polishes have some cleaning ability.

Polishing deep-cleans the paint. It also removes oxidation, old wax, minor swirl marks and water spots. The result is a rejuvenated top paint layer, which is then ready for waxing or sealing. Polishing creates a uniform, high-gloss shine.

EVALUATING YOUR CAR'S PAINT
You can easily evaluate your car's paint every time you wash. To do so, wash and dry your car. With clean hands, run your fingertips across the paint surface. It should feel very smooth, like glass. If it doesn't, you're feeling the contaminants and oxidation on the surface of the paint. This is your indication that it's time to clean and polish your paint using a good polish.

To determine if your paint has enough wax protection, rub a clean, dry detailing towel over the hood or trunk surfaces. If you hear squeaking, it's because the paint is dry and needs polishing and protection. When a car's paint surface has good wax protection, a good buffing towel should glide across the surface.

SELECTING A POLISH
Selecting a polish can be intimidating. There are hundreds from which to choose, each having different abrasive or cut capability. There are polishes for clear coat and non-clear coat finishes. You will also need to choose the correct product for hand application or machine application. In most cases, hand polishing is most appropriate.

Polishing a newer car twice a year will maintain the car's showroom appearance for years to come. Newer cars usually have a clear coat finish, so be sure to select a low abrasive polish that is safe for clear coat finishes. For ultra-safe polishing and paint cleaning, use a polish designed to be a fine pre-wax cleaner on new paint and paint in excellent condition.

If your car's finish is dull, cloudy, or chalky, it may require the use of a light rubbing compound. Use caution when polishing with compounds, as they will quickly remove the top layer of dead paint. Check your work often to make sure you don't rub the paint too thin. Follow compounding with a swirl remover polish formula.

POLISHING TIPS
Once you've selected a polish, here are some tips to make polishing easier:

Work in a shaded area, out of direct sunlight.
Work on one area at a time covering two to four square feet. Buff off the polish residues as you go. This allows you to discover any problems early before polishing the entire car.
For best results, use a micofibre pad to apply polish. When the applicator becomes caked with polish, switch to a fresh applicator.
Use a small amount of polish. With most polishes, a 1-inch size dab is enough to polish a two to three square foot area.
If the polishing residue does not buff off easily, switch to a clean buffing towel.
Apply polishes in a back and forth motion, not circular (polishes should take out swirls, not create them… don't polish in circles). If you are creating swirls, you are using a polish that is too abrasive or you need to replace your polishing pad or towels.
After polishing, your car's paint should be squeaky clean, smooth, and free of streaks and minor swirls. It's now ready for waxing.



this is quite a good summary

john

I just read Johns guide and realized I shouldnt have gone in circles when I went over my car with G3 . Can anyone reccomend a good product that I can use between the G3 and the final polish (as said in my thread I was going to use the quick clay then Megauirs body scrub followed by NXT Tech wax but I'm unsure now) HELP !!!!!!!

Anyone



















Well hopfully c76jon

i'm well into this now...

purchased: microfibre wash mit, gold class shampoo, microfibre water magnet drying thing, large watering can, 6 microfibre cloths, 4 microfibre applicator pads, scratch x, paint cleaner, paint nourisher and carnauba wax. (all meguiars apart from the pads, they are halfords, couldn't find meguiars)

method: washed the car with hot washing up liquid water. (sponge and chamois, didn't see what difference one more use was going to make). then clayed it all over, slowly and thoroughly.

then for each panel:
scratch x thoroughly rubbed in with microfibre pad. residue removed with microfibre cloth.
paint cleaner thoroughly rubbed in with micofibre cloth. residue removed with microfibre cloth.
washed panel with mitt and dried with water magnet thing.
paint nourisher thoroughly rubbed in with micofibre cloth. residue removed with microfibre cloth. repeat.
carnuaba wax thoroughly rubbed in with micofibre cloth. residue removed with microfibre cloth. repeat.

if it's a new day i'll wash the panel to be treated with mitt and dry with magnet thing before starting.

the roof took about 3 1/2 hours. the bonnet was about the same. the boot lid was about 2 1/2 hours. one rear quarter panel was around 2 hours. that's as far as i've got, three afternoons so far. i reckon on another 8 hours or so to complete.

i fairly quickly gave up with the m/f pads and cut up a m/f cloth for application use instead. i found it to be more accurate and it took a lot longer to clog up with product.

i do phyiscal work for a living (renovating properties) and play squash 6 times a week so i'm fairly fit. i've been applying product with right hand and removing with left hand. last night after squash my shoulder blades cramped up in the shower and i couldn't raise my hands to wash myself for several minutes, it hurt. so it's quite hard work this.

my car has never been so shiny. but to be completely honest the difference is not that much from my monthly mer and twice weekly wash with sponge and chamois finish. i left a third of the bonnet undone and challenged a couple of neighbours to pick out which third - and they couldn't. so what gives? (and my windows and trim pieces have traces of product residue on them which although i've done my best to remove as i've gone along will take some effort to get clean at the end i'm sure.)

swirl marks are not removed. some are but many more remain. in fact i didn't have any straight swirls before this process and now i do - so something somewhere in the list above is introducing new swirls.

it'll be completed and at gaydon (assuming it doesn't rain too much) so you can see the results there.

frankly for the expense, time and effort i don't feel it's worth it. my water spots are gone however - so for that i'm grateful. but the pain in my right forearm is not very nice and i've loads more paint to do yet.

paul

what action are you using with the application and removal??

never use hot water on paint just luke warm

always use two buckets

explain how u used the clay

how often did u fold the clay??

i would have washed car after claying and prior to application of anything else

microfibre comes in many many different qualities and halfords stuff is pretty poor

id also say that u possibly did have more swirls than you thort you had but now paint has been clayed and shite removed they are more visible
many many products mer included contain oils and fillers which are used to fill marring and minor swirls so the removal of it has shown up what is there

i admire your efforts.prep takes a long time.

by hand imho is a hiding to nothing.its such hard work it really is

if you want perfection or as closeas you can get then a porter cable is the way to go

150 quid all sorted with pads etc but you will use it on one panel stand back and wonder how you ever perservered by hand

your product choice is a personal thing but others would and could make life a lot easier

dont give up.it takes time to learn what works for you and improve your methods as you see some things work and others dont.

pics of swirls would allow suggestions on remedies

again all my opinion and only help offered

john

john

many thanks for the reply. it's appreciated. to answer your questions:

application and removal is in straight lines in the same direction as air would travel over the panel in forward driving (your advice in fact! i'd have rubbed it around in circles otherwise) (except for the bumpers, i think i'll do them across the car when the time comes) i apply the product to the centre of the pad/cloth piece and then dab it at regular intervals along the line i'm about to treat, then smear it then work it in thoroughly in small square areas. for removal i use a clean area of m/f cloth in the same straight line, removing each line as it's completed.

i used hot water to melt off any and all mer. it worked a treat! i have taken this on board however and will not do so again. (sorry)

2 buckets - i have 4 'buckets' out there - shampoo bucket, rinsing the mitt bucket, clean panel rinsing water watering can and clean panel rinsing water bucket for watering can refil or mitt rinsing whichever is required first. (always watering can refil in practice) i have to carry all the water i need to the car as any hose would have to cross a road to get to it. (and i have not installed a front of house outside tap yet. typical plumber eh!)

clay - worked it warm in my hands for a good 5 minutes, liberally sprayed area to be clayed with 'quick detailer', flattened clay and wiped it across wet area in the same direction as intended polishing. worked clay in hands and used fresh side every area. caused quite achey fingers actually. i've clayed before so was confident of this bit.

i did wash the car carefully after claying, using my wash mitt, watering can and water magnet thing all for the first time. i forgot to put this above.

i see what you're saying about the swirls being more visible and it's probably correct. (depressingly) i went to see the man at 'chipbusters' up the road yesterday (i was passing, handily) and asked him about swirls. (i was on my bike and was deliberately vague, wanting to know if he knew his stuff before explaining where i was at) and he said that hand polishing 2-pack paint by hand to remove swirls was nigh on impossible and that even if i could remove them they'd only come back in 2 or 3 months time. (not exactly sure what he meant by that but anyway...) when i asked for a ballpark figure for machine polishing out all the swirls he said around 200 (but he'd need to see the car, obviously) and the car would be required for a day and a half. i'd only done the roof panel at this point so i figured i'd finish by hand and see how it turns out. he said that he had experience of preparing paintwork for shows and tried to champion the cause of 'silver something' rather than 'guard x' as his chosen product line. i figured i would trust him to machine polish my paint but i wouldn't want any of his finishing products applied after.

i'll do my best for pictures - but the only camera we have is 1 million pixels (it was the dogs at the time!) and makes my red paint look pink (see sig pic...!) i'll try and borrow a newer/higher spec camera tomorrow and post something up, but right now i don't know anyone that has such a camera other than my parents and they're miles away.

another problem i'm noticing is that where my de-chrome and bumper details are satin black they're rubbing through at the edges and showing chrome or red if i even so much as get either of my first 2 products within a foot of them. i'll need to mask the car and re-paint them when done. realistically this will have to be a trip to the paint shop as my only hope of painting under cover is my local asda multi-story on a sunday after hours on a hot still day and these are fast disappearing.

cheers john for any advice. i'm still determined.

paul

here's what i'm dealing with....

bootlid results:


and swirls:



like i said, low res camera and no photography skills. i didn't really capture the swirls.....

paul