E30 Zone

Hi to you all
I've just fitted an E36 3.2 Evo into my lhd E30. But I'm having a problem with the brakes. As the servo in the way of thinks and had to be removed. The thing is that I've tried to change the system over to hydraulic than vacuum but still not got the room that I need for the master cylinder the air bellows keeps getting in the way. I'm looking for some one that has got around this problem and is happy to share it with me and if possible some pitchers to prove it. because it has to good and safe not maybes or tire this. I'm sorry to go on but I've spent a lot on things that may work and have not. So can some one out there help me please?

try ian332 sport hes got the 3.2 in his and is all working good, do a search for him and PM (private message) him.

welcome to the zone by the way, see its you first post

Sorry to hijack this thread but is that that 318is that went for £650 near Warrington Appletree?? Christ, it looks mint...wish I had taken a financial risk and gone to view now!

bm1956 wrote:I'm looking for some one that has got around this problem and is happy to share it with me and if possible some pitchers to prove it.

Welcome to the e30zone, you've come to the right place

You say you used the Hydraulic booster. Did you use the E28/E32 version ? If so, then that's half your problem. You really need to use the same unit, but from the older E23 7 series. Here's a picture that compares the two:



As you can see, the overall length of the booster is the same, but the mounting flange is further along the body, so some if it's length is lost inside the car. Although this does improve the clearance between the rubber bellows and the master cylinder, it does not cure the problem totally. When bolting the booster to the car, I also made up a thin spacer to fit between two of the mounting studs and the bulkhead. This has the effect of moving the end of the master cylinder across away from the bellows. It was only a few milimeters thick, but it made all the difference.

On my car, I also had the plenum modified to move the bellows mounting flange further forward by approx 30mm, and inwards by 20mm at the top, and 30mm at the bottom. Once painted, you would never know it's been touched. This is the plenum after modification, but before painting:



These show the plenum after painting with a matching wrinkle finish paint:




This is a finished shot from above:



The end of the master cylinder (25mm cylinder from E32 750i) does just touch the rubber bellows, but when under load, the engine moves away from the master cylinder. I have been running mine for nearly 5 years, and have not had a single problem.

Cheers,

Ian.

Thanks to all and especially to ian. ian I do have a E23 booster but was thinking of an E12 master cylinder as it's the same sizes is 23.81 I think it's the same as a E30 M3 but maybe shorter in length I'm not shore? Thanks for the pitchers. Your conversion looks very good indeed I'm still working on mine. But is the booster the only way around this? Nice job on the manifold ian did it take a long time to work out the adjustments?

bm1956 wrote:Thanks to all and especially to ian. ian I do have a E23 booster but was thinking of an E12 master cylinder as it's the same sizes is 23.81 I think it's the same as a E30 M3 but maybe shorter in length I'm not shore? Thanks for the pitchers. Your conversion looks very good indeed I'm still working on mine. But is the booster the only way around this? Nice job on the manifold ian did it take a long time to work out the adjustments?

If you can find a shorter master cylinder then it would certainly help. I did look extensively at a lot of different cylinders, but never found one shorter than the standard one (not that would fit on the hydraulic booster anyway).

It took a lot of measuring and a equal quantities of luck and guess work, but it fitted very well in the end

Cheers,

Ian.

hope u don't mind me askin but how much coin r u talkin about putin an evo into an e30???

lenny-d wrote:hope u don't mind me askin but how much coin r u talkin about putin an evo into an e30???

To do it properly, you won't see much (if any) change from 6K minimum (unless you can find an engine very cheap).

is it worth it

lenny-d wrote:is it worth it

I would say so

Definately worth it, if you can fund it....Ian's car is amazing, the whole set up looks just like it came out of the showroom, doesn't look out of place at all...in fact the complete opposite.

Pal

there are other ways to do this.
I chose a smaller servo and a shorter master cylinder and modded the plenum by cutting a small piece out of the corner.Approx 1" by 2" long.If i had moved the servo over more then i wouldnt have had to chop the plenum chamber at all.



you can see how much shorter the master cylinder is by the two original brake pipe positions.






cheers
andy

AZEVEDO motorsports use a suzuki swift/ geo metro booster

observehttp://www.azevedomotorsports.com/galle ... temId=3407
and http://www.azevedomotorsports.com/galle ... temId=3410

Find More pics herehttp://www.azevedomotorsports.com/galle ... &g2_page=2

I really like the conversion... Note the 325ix and i think E32 brake booster are shared...its smaller and can work too..

Feedback??? what u all think??
sash

nice,that servo looks tiny !!!
But if it works ,it works !

I think Ians estimate is about right.

So far I've spent :
£2K engine
£200 gearbox
£300 diff
£1k brakes and suspension
£700+ manifold and exhaust (big thanks to Ste when these come in)
£1k on new car to put it all in!

So far all I have is a big pile of bits and my everday hack has broken down! I still have about £1k to spend in bits and bobs and having little bits modified. I agree it'll be worth it, a friend has just got himself an E36 M3GT and I LOVE the power. Ian's E30 is a rocket but civilised.

I'm interested to know what using the smaller servo is like. I plan to have 315mm front and 312mm rear disks so hopefully the powerful brakes will overcome the loss of mechanical advantage in the braking system and not feel too scary!. My MK2 Golf 2.016v(ABF) had very heavy brakes which took a while to get used to but were fantastic when you did, they had loads of modulation before locking up and 280mm disks. Hopefully the smaller servo will have that going for it in the E30.

Good luck with the install dude..

Jai

I would be very suspect of using such a small booster. I know people in the US that have done similar conversion, but with a larger 2002 servo. It was fine for road use, but when used hard on the track, it ran out of vacuum after a lot of braking.

I appreciate this won't cause you to loose brakes completely, but you will suddenly find that you have to press a lot harder to continue slowing down. It apparently caused some very brown trouser moments

Ian.

I'm surprised the big capacity 6 pot doesn't generate enough vacum on overrun to negate that??

It is worth consideration. How much of a PITA was plumbing your hydraulic setup Ian? I like the look of both yours and Andy's sollutions but get the feeling the vacum setup needs less modification/custom parts and is therefore easier?

God I sound lazy!

Guess it comes down to how good it is?

Jai

jaistanley wrote:I'm surprised the big capacity 6 pot doesn't generate enough vacuum on overrun to negate that??

You would think so, but apparently not (it was Clarke on the Twincam group - have a read through the archives).

How much of a PITA was plumbing your hydraulic setup Ian?

It was a big PITA to be honest, but mine at least, works very well. I've also read of other people having issues with it though. I think it's important to make sure you have all the correct flow restriction orifices in the pipework though.

I like the look of both yours and Andy's solutions but get the feeling the vacuum setup needs less modification/custom parts and is therefore easier?

I think the vacuum system is easier, and with a suitable sized servo is fine. Those Geo Metro servos just look way too small though.

Ian.

ian332isport wrote: I think the vacuum system is easier, and with a suitable sized servo is fine. Those Geo Metro servos just look way too small though.

That servo looks tiny
Much smaller than the Mk1 Golf servo I had and I thought that was too small to use

That servo is very small, I don't think much of their pipework though. Why put those straight couplers in instead of remaking the pipework to the ABS servo? That tee isn't required either, why not just blank off the spare port

Conversion looks ok though. Anyone notice the control arm bushes on the underside pic.

old_skool_2002 wrote:Anyone notice the control arm bushes on the underside pic.

Hi Dameon,

Those are from Treehouse racing in the states. You quite often hear of them referred to as 'Eyeball arms'.



Probably very good for track use, but they must shake your fillings out on the road.

Ian.

Why have a servo? I plan to remove the servo from my M3 when the turbo engine goes in. I will ahve 4 pots alround thought!

Those are from Treehouse racing in the states. You quite often hear of them referred to as 'Eyeball arms'

Ian, as always I am in awe Must be right about loosing the dentures! there can't be a lot of free play in those suckers

Why have a servo? I plan to remove the servo from my M3 when the turbo engine goes in. I will ahve 4 pots alround thought!

What is you're reasoning in removing the servo altogether 215m3?

There is an issue with space is there not? If your putting a 300 bhp engine in a kototr the brakes will be upgraded. If you have 4 pots alround you would get away without needing the servo. Just need to press a little firmer with the pedal.

here is an issue with space is there not?

Yes, but not that much of an issue. I think you'll have more hassle linking everthing up together without a smaller servo.

I considered fitting a willwood pedal box with dual master cylinders; but having never driven in a road car (heavy) with one of these set ups, I've not gone through with it. From what I understand it's nothing like driving std brakes with the servo disconnected. The brake pedal (essentially a lever arm) is of different proportions giving more mechanical advantage, coupled with careful master cylinder size selection. This means they are firm but not as much as we expect.

Perhaps someone who runs one could comment?

It would be very neat, mounting in the cabin on the drivers side negating the need for any of the pull mechanisms etc from the E30 etc, and mean you could feasibly fit any calipers to front or rear and choose master cylinders/balance to maintain the brake distribution. All you'd see in the engine bay are the trés cool reservoirs. I shall be going for the front and rear brakes from the same car so both my master cylinders would be the same and balance bar set around 50% but many people want to upgrade to better front calipers not neccesarily requiring the same master cylinder as the existing rears.

Another alternative is a remote servo setup. I have heard tale the porsche 924/944 has a nice remote setup. Essentially means you could have a master cylinder where our servos are now (or even use an E36 pedal box on drivers side perhaps?) and mount the slave/servo/master cylinders elsewhere (such as where the battery is on a 4 pot car?).

Discuss... Ha.

Jai

the only problem with a remote servo is you need one for each brake system.So in an e30, 2 remote servo's would be needed.I think

buster wrote:the only problem with a remote servo is you need one for each brake system.So in an e30, 2 remote servo's would be needed.I think

I kind of looked into remote servos, but not that seriously in the end. I think you can get dual servos to cover that problem, but then the size of the servo becomes an issue, especially on a road car that you want to look 'factory'. A track car with the remote system wouldnt be so much of problem.

I can't see why you'd need two servos??

One single output master cylinder connected directly to the pedal, can be any size as long as it's the same as the slave cylinder connected to the back side of the servo, then on the 'front' side of the servo you'd fit the master cylinder originally designed for the car/braking system. What you're in effect doing is move the linear actuation of the pedal from the pedal box to the slave cylinder on the remote servo. You'd only need to send it a vacuum and you're away. Perhaps I'm wrong, I often am.

As for the dual master cylinder/bias pedal box in a road car.. Has anyone driven with a properly set up one of these in something the same weight as an E30?? The McClaren F1 has one, but then the brakes are rather larger than my 315mm efforts and the car is 200kg lighter!! (300 horsepower odd more though!)

Jai

hey guys....just in regards to the swift/geo metro booster....my brake friends have been on the case and asked why a vacuum box hasnt been used to improve booster vacuum!!! i didnt know what it was....its just a remote box that can negate more vacuum pressure!!

Also as an update ive heard that RENAULT clio sports/ CUP have a very usable brake booster and mc.....right size 8" dual diaphragm and has 25mm mc!!!

Can anyone Confirm this???

PS thanks Ian for ur help with S50 wiring loom...engine kicked over 2 weeks ago!!!!! im working on exhaust headers and servo now....

HI MATE IM FROM SOUTH WALES AND AM CURRENTLY DOING A E36 M3 EVO CONVERSION TO MY E30 318IS. CAN YOU PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW I DO THE ELECTRICS AND HOW I GET THE GEARBOX AND MANIFOLD TO FIT TO MY E30. ALSO SORRY TO ASK BUT COULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME ALL THE OTHER PROBLEMS HAT MAY OCCUR WHEN IM DOING THIS CONVERSION.
THANKS ALOT JAMIE.

A vacuum box is a good idea, just a storage tank for vacuum. Would work well if you had a small booster?

ian332isport wrote:

old_skool_2002 wrote:Anyone notice the control arm bushes on the underside pic.

Hi Dameon,

Those are from Treehouse racing in the states. You quite often hear of them referred to as 'Eyeball arms'.



Probably very good for track use, but they must shake your fillings out on the road.

Ian.

I can comment on these as I'm running them on my 325i and its not very hard or shakey at all. But then again I am used to hard suspension as my daily driver isn't soft by any means. I was expecting alot worse from this setup though.

The reason they use them for the conversion is to help the exhaust manifold fit past the control arm bushings without too much modification. There are other ways around this though.