E30 Zone

is this feasible?

or dreamland?

(in terms of off the shelf bits vs custom)

Ive been dreaming of this swap aswell........

not into a RHD, turbo in way of steering

LHD, yes certainly

so is it do able with custom manifold.... i.e. no more problematic than a normal m30 swap... bar siting the turbo...?

ffelan wrote:so is it do able with custom manifold.... i.e. no more problematic than a normal m30 swap... bar siting the turbo...?

Anything is do able just depends how much patience you have got, and the amount of skin left on your knuckles.

Would be easier in a left hand drive for sure and they are cheaper to buy.

IMO, it's not really worth the effort - the 3.5 M102 puts out about the same power as the original M88 M5 engine, and less than the later S38.
A well tuned 3.5 M30 will put out the same output with none of the turbo lag, or problems that a 20 year old M102 engine will have.
It will also be much easier to fit.
The South African 745i used the M88 due to import restrictions and the issues of fitting the M102 to RHD.

to be honest im leaning towards a bi turbo m20....

The biggest problem we have with the RHD is the steering coloum in the way of the exhaust/turbo.

There has been someone who routed the exhuast under the engine to fit the turbo on the inlet side of the car, it looked nice, but again, was a bitch

kam-325i wrote:The biggest problem we have with the RHD is the steering coloum in the way of the exhaust/turbo.

There has been someone who routed the exhuast under the engine to fit the turbo on the inlet side of the car, it looked nice, but again, was a bitch

would also give more lag as well due to longer pipework to the turbo

Pilsbury wrote:IMO, it's not really worth the effort - the 3.5 M102 puts out about the same power as the original M88 M5 engine, and less than the later S38.
A well tuned 3.5 M30 will put out the same output with none of the turbo lag, or problems that a 20 year old M102 engine will have.
It will also be much easier to fit.

would't really agree with any of that. the s38 is at the limit of its potential as standard, and doesn't make all that much more torque either compared to a standard m30. and once a standard m30 is tuned up enough to match an M102 it won't have anything like the torque figure/spread.

the later m102 apparently will make 400bhp easy. and more torque more widely spread than the s38.

also much cheaper to mend if it goes bang. i don't understand how a m102 will have 'problems' and an s38 won't? do you know how much s38 parts cost?! the m102 is largely m30. and the s38 is a deal more involved/expensive to put in an e30 than the m30.

nothing against the s38 at all, they're absolutely wonderful. but i'd say a 745 engine would definately be worth the effort, and with more boost would hammer an s38.

FFelan - i don't know the specifics but i'd say manifold and downpipe apart it shouldn't be a nightmare. IC might have to go in a different place.

Toby_Unna wrote:not into a RHD, turbo in way of steering

kam-325i wrote:The biggest problem we have with the RHD is the steering coloum in the way of the exhaust/turbo.

My point was that the newest German E23 745i is going to be 20 years old, good ones will be well maintained collectors cars, ropey ones are going to have been very well abused by now. While the engine is based on the M30, pistons and so on are different, so parts supply isn't as easy as you'd imagine.
While I agree that parts for an M88 / S38 are going to be expensive, there are a lot more M5's and M635CSi's in extistence than 745i's, especially in the UK.
While you have the potential for 400bhp from an M102 (3.2 version) or M106 (3.4), you would have to make sure that the engine itself is sound before doing anything. Moving the turbo etc will add a significant amount of lag, and the 745i suffered pretty badly from lag as it was. Torque output on them was also pretty peaky, and fairly high up the band as well.

Better options IMO would be a tuned or self / Alpina turbo'd M30, or a M60 based conversion, possibly with a supercharger.

The later M106 745 engine is a very tunable and durable unit and definately not laggy, having owned (i still have 1) several 745s i am a big fan of this motor and would love to see a hero put one in an e30. I guarantee an e30 with this motor with a few cheap simple mods will slaughter anything M powered (except maybe Glenns hero chariot !)
Its all about torque !

pacerpete wrote:The later M106 745 engine is a very tunable and durable unit and definately not laggy, having owned (i still have 1) several 745s i am a big fan of this motor and would love to see a hero put one in an e30. I guarantee an e30 with this motor with a few cheap simple mods will slaughter anything M powered (except maybe Glenns hero chariot !)
Its all about torque !

You still have one, well I have an E30.....sell me your engine and I will be your hero!

My father had a German and a South African 745i the South African M88 one destroyed the M102 engined one point to point.

The 102 engined 745 (old distributor 3.2 shitter) is a boat anchor and not worth bothering with. The 106 engine (motronic 3.4) is a whole different ball game, i to have driven both cars and the turbo car was easily faster, e23s are big heavy turds and the revvy m88 engine and auto box are not suitable bed fellows. I believe you could buy a manual sa 745 and that may well be faster but put a manual box behind the turbo engine and it would be no contest.

The SA one was a manual, yes, but, even the auto one was 30+bhp up on the German one, and had the same amount of torque and NO lag...
I believe they both used the same gear ratios on the same gearbox, and the SA one had better setup suspension and brakes. This alone would make the SA faster point to point IMO. Straight line speed is no use on real roads.
Also, the E23 isn't that heavy, it's about the same weight as the E34 5 series, and under 100kg more than the current E90 3 Series.

ffelan wrote:to be honest im leaning towards a bi turbo m20....

You'll gain next to nothing in terms of lag or power by going twin turbo! You will gain a huge pain in the buttocks though!

Pilsbury wrote:but, even the auto one was 30+bhp up on the German one, and had the same amount of torque

Pilsbury wrote:Torque output on them was also pretty peaky, and fairly high up the band as well.

where are you getting these figures from!

279lb.ft at 2200rpm is the standard M106 spec, and the early S38 (e28 m5 spec, which i presume is the variant the 745 NA used) is nearer 245@4500.

i'm not trying to start an argument but you're saying it's not worth the swap and i disagree, some people don't mind a bit of turbo lag and aren't so interested in knocking tenths off point to point back road times! i'm currently turboing my m30 engine, and would much rather be starting with the 745 motor, piston oil sprays and all

Alex, you crack me up

I'm not arguing either, but, the better brakes and suspension would do a lot more than knock off a few tenths...

What I was saying about it not being worth the effort to swap (and this is purely my opinion) was that a 745i with a decent engine is not going to be easy to find to start with, they don't come up for sale that often - and the last ones I saw were going for around Ԛ£5k.
A decent M30 engined 535i or 735i will be under Ԛ£1k, and you could probably pick up a 540 or 740 for a few hundred quid more. For that, you'll be getting an engine that is a good 10 years younger and has a more ready supply of parts.
For the Ԛ£4k you'd be saving by going down say the M60 path, you could buy a supercharger kit and still be in money. (I believe that gives you somewhere in the region of 400bhp and 400lbs/ft torque - and nearly 300lb/ft at 2000RPM.) The standard M60 4.0 has 330lbs/ft torque at 4000RPM and is pretty flat throughout the whole range (somewhere in the region of 260lbs/ft at 2000RPM).
I'm just saying what I would do.

My first 745 (2 0wner 50000 miler) was free!, i sold the running gear to an aussie to fit in a 70s 3.0 cs for Ԛ£1500, my second one was Ԛ£507 off ebay with an mot and i drove it 100 miles home.
These cars are very rare in the u.k but can be found in europe. A friend of mine has just bought one from german ebay for about Ԛ£1750, its engine is destined for an e21 !

Most modded E21's in Lebanon have M102 in 'em. Basically, they lighten the car, stick slicks on it, and end up slaughtering Porsches and M5's. New ones.

weegaz22 wrote:

kam-325i wrote:The biggest problem we have with the RHD is the steering coloum in the way of the exhaust/turbo.

There has been someone who routed the exhuast under the engine to fit the turbo on the inlet side of the car, it looked nice, but again, was a bitch

would also give more lag as well due to longer pipework to the turbo

Can be compensated with the right size turbo........also have you seen how far remote turbos have come along in America? Not that laggy and turbos located under rear valence where mufflers/back boxes would sit.

It can be done, and quite cheaply. I had all the parts read to fit it, as well as the t70 turbo.

ebay.com (not .co.uk) is your best friend here.

You need to get two t3 ford type turbo monts, and a mandrel bent thick wall piping.

You then fab up a bend that mounts between the turbo and the manifold.

The restriction won't exist in the grand scheme of things.

I purchased an M106 last night, it's going in the E30 this week. I took a spin in the donor car, it's an E21 with no interior and fiberglass panels.... It's scary fast. The owner has fine tuned it slightly with cams and upped the boost and installed a fuel regulator and stuff, we dynoed at 362bhp. That's with a stock intercooler and ECU.

It's a very easy swap, takes a skilled mechanic about a day if he works on it all day/night. I'll keep ya updated.

Toby_Unna wrote:

Pilsbury wrote:but, even the auto one was 30+bhp up on the German one, and had the same amount of torque

Pilsbury wrote:Torque output on them was also pretty peaky, and fairly high up the band as well.

where are you getting these figures from!

279lb.ft at 2200rpm is the standard M106 spec, and the early S38 (e28 m5 spec, which i presume is the variant the 745 NA used) is nearer 245@4500.

i'm not trying to start an argument but you're saying it's not worth the swap and i disagree, some people don't mind a bit of turbo lag and aren't so interested in knocking tenths off point to point back road times! i'm currently turboing my m30 engine, and would much rather be starting with the 745 motor, piston oil sprays and all

Alex, you crack me up

You can't compare M88 and M106 engines, they are very very different, and purpose is different.
M88 is a racing engine, you just don't care about torque in low revs. High revs, big HP output, throtle response is what you care about.
M106 i would call "comfort drive" engine

Comfort drive? It rips through revs like cops through donuts! Well, especially if it's tuned, at least. I'll try to post a video of mine when it's done.

Shoomakan wrote:Comfort drive? It rips through revs like cops through donuts! Well, especially if it's tuned, at least. I'll try to post a video of mine when it's done.

Relax, i was talking about stock units

LOL I know, it's fine... Speaking of which, the engine I was supposed to get, the M106, got sold before I got there. It was so close the buyer was in the room with me. I was about to strangle him...