E30 Zone

Finally got down to actually doing the swap after dreaming of an m3 motor in my e30 forever.......

Firstly got a buyer for my 2.7 M20....






ENGINE Ready for the new owner

First thing to tackle was the brakes, since im swapping a euro motor i need loads of space on the intake side, i decided to go with the golf servo and standard e30 master cylinder. To move the booster closer to the strut tower, i drilled and cut the firewall to accomodate the booster more to the side. For the purpose of support and strengh i made up 2 plates of steel to really keep the booster in its place and not let it break through the firewall....



Plates and booster sprayed and ready to be fitted




i obviously need to lenghthen the rod from the pedal to the booster so i used the e34 rod with a little shortening and re-threading.......
the finished product (inside)




and outside....

the engine bay looks a bit old so i decided to do some touch ups before i get the motor back from the engineers...

Primered and ready for paint





Fresh Paint

Received the bearings from the dealer, expensive buggers , had to wait 2 weeks to get them from Germany...

the heart on the operating table......

looks good so far.

does the inlet manifold still have top be notched with the servo moved or is there enough clearance now? i know some people notch them but cant remember if they moved the servo.

nickso wrote:looks good so far.

does the inlet manifold still have top be notched with the servo moved or is there enough clearance now? i know some people notch them but cant remember if they moved the servo.

Thanks

The inlet manifold clears with the servo moved..... just grinded the small lip on the servo for extra clearance

Finally.... time to fit in...

Fitted: after some mounting probs, i finally decided on using the e30 mounting arm on the driver side and the e36 mounting arm on the passengers side...

Looking good. You might consider changing your steering rack for one from an E36 or E46 to give you fewer turns full-lock. E30 racks tend to be a bit on the slow side.

GeoffBob wrote:Looking good. You might consider changing your steering rack for one from an E36 or E46 to give you fewer turns full-lock. E30 racks tend to be a bit on the slow side.

next on the list, should have done it with the motor out but its too late now

A henna red chromie on genuine alpinas.

I cant think of many prefacelift cars with S50's.

I fitted my 3-turn lock-to-lock E46 rack a short while back. Makes a big difference, I don't have to feed the wheel through my hands like I'm driving a bus . details here:

http://www.e3024v.com/board/index.php?t ... sg3147#new

If you haven't yet seen the e3024V forum, it deals specifically with M50, S50, etc.. conversions. Lots of tips on how to massage in those bigger engines.

See http://www.e3024v.com/

nice. good luck with the rest of the work. ash

Got the headers done , i had the original M3 headers modified to fit...

now onto the wiring.......Got lots of help on what connects to where and everything to do with the wiring from IAN HAYNES.....Ian is a mastermind when it comes to this sort of thing...THANKS IAN....

Looking good there.

How did you modify the M3 header? I'm planning to use it for my swap too.

And what transmission do you have, with what drive shaft?

Thanks.

RoadHazard wrote:Looking good there.

How did you modify the M3 header? I'm planning to use it for my swap too.

And what transmission do you have, with what drive shaft?

Thanks.

The exhaust shop actually modified it for me, only the second half of the headers(rear) need to be modified. What they did was they cut, bent and re -welded the headers,they just re - route it around the steering column.
i have the M3 Zf 5 speed transmission and had a driveshaft made up for me...

Have you found your LSD yet? I picked up two this morning, one from an E36 fresh for relocation into an E30 casing, and one fom an E30. Both in excellent condition. Unfortunately neither is the ratio you are looking for. Point is, they're around if you look hard.

GeoffBob wrote:Have you found your LSD yet? I picked up two this morning, one from an E36 fresh for relocation into an E30 casing, and one fom an E30. Both in excellent condition. Unfortunately neither is the ratio you are looking for. Point is, they're around if you look hard.

havent found one yet, could you do me a favour and look out for the ratio im looking for ? (3.15) or even better would be a z3 diff for straight fitment

SAE30 wrote:

GeoffBob wrote:Have you found your LSD yet? I picked up two this morning, one from an E36 fresh for relocation into an E30 casing, and one fom an E30. Both in excellent condition. Unfortunately neither is the ratio you are looking for. Point is, they're around if you look hard.

havent found one yet, could you do me a favour and look out for the ratio im looking for ? (3.15) or even better would be a z3 diff for straight fitment

Will do, but no guarantees. A 41:13 (3.15) LSD is a tough find locally (mostly 45:13 and 40:11 in this part of the world), but I'll keep an eye out for you.

Not too many Z3's in the scrap yards that I have seen.

Remember, an LSD is hard to tell from an open diif unless you know what you are looking for. Many scrap yards have little gems up against their back walls that they don't even know are there. Best way to find the diff you are looking for is to go digging for one yourself. It takes time, but you'll find one eventually.

i got a nice 3.15 LSD diff from a 323ti e36 compact. got it really cheap from the local yard, they really didnt know what they were selling

just 50usd

GeoffBob wrote:

SAE30 wrote:

GeoffBob wrote:Have you found your LSD yet? I picked up two this morning, one from an E36 fresh for relocation into an E30 casing, and one fom an E30. Both in excellent condition. Unfortunately neither is the ratio you are looking for. Point is, they're around if you look hard.

havent found one yet, could you do me a favour and look out for the ratio im looking for ? (3.15) or even better would be a z3 diff for straight fitment

Will do, but no guarantees. A 41:13 (3.15) LSD is a tough find locally (mostly 45:13 and 40:11 in this part of the world), but I'll keep an eye out for you.

Not too many Z3's in the scrap yards that I have seen.

Remember, an LSD is hard to tell from an open diif unless you know what you are looking for. Many scrap yards have little gems up against their back walls that they don't even know are there. Best way to find the diff you are looking for is to go digging for one yourself. It takes time, but you'll find one eventually.

Thanks man

telling a LSD apart from an open one shouldn't be a problem. Turn one output flange and if the other output flange turns the SAME direction --> LSD! (blocking the input flange of course first)

EDIT: SHOULDN'T not should, sorry for the confusion

UweM3 wrote:telling a LSD apart from an open one should be a problem.

UweM3 wrote:Turn one output flange and if the other output flange turns the SAME direction --> LSD! (blocking the input flange of course first)

Sorry Uwe, but I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on that one. Turning one output flange with the input flange locked will force the other output flange to turn in the opposite direction due to the action of the planet and sun gears (same as an open diff). A LSD (Clutch type, viscous, or otherwise) still includes a set of planet and sun gears (even if not instantly recognisable compared to an open diff).

Coyote_ar wrote:i got a nice 3.15 LSD diff from a 323ti e36 compact. got it really cheap from the local yard, they really didnt know what they were selling.
just 50usd

Wish I could find an LSD that cheap over here!

GeoffBob, why don't you give it a try. You might be surprised......

UweM3 wrote:GeoffBob, why don't you give it a try. You might be surprised......

No need to Uwe, I've had enough diffs apart to know how they work. In fact, in the attached picture you can see me pointing to the LS casing at the centre of a LSD. This contains the sun and planet gears which function in an identical manner to the sun and planet gears in an open diff. Only difference is that, with a LSD, the sun gears engage the LS casing (which is rigidly attached to the crown-wheel) via a coupling (clutch type, viscous or otherwise) in order to prevent slip.

With the clutch type LSD found on many BMW's the engagement of the clutch mechanism (which binds the sun gears to the LS housing) is a function of the torque applied to the input shaft, while on the viscous type (found on the 325ix and some others) the viscous coupling engages as a function of the speed difference between the two output shafts.



It is, therefore, factually impossible to turn the output shafts in the same direction with the input shaft locked on any differential, open or LS. If you still don't believe me, go park your car in 1st gear (to reasonably lock the input shaft) with the handbrake off, and then see if you can push the car forward (output shafts moving in the same direction) without the engine forced to crank (input shaft turning).

Whoever told you this was how to find an LSD at the scrappy told you big fat porkies!!

GeoffBob wrote: Whoever told you this was how to find an LSD at the scrappy told you big fat porkies!!

well than there must be a lot of idiots out there and my last three LSD diffs have been open diffs according to you (guess my gearbox man is also blind because he had two off them open and didn't tell me that I was sold the wrong diffs.....)

When my car is on a ramp with both wheels of the ground and you turn one wheel, the other is turning in the SAME direction. According to you this is impossible. According to me this is a LSD. There is some PRELOAD on the clutches and they responsible for this effect. This is not a FWD diff! (or you had a very very knackered LSD to try this out)

Maybe you overlook that you are turning an OUTPUT shaft by hand and not the input shaft. The preload in the clutchpack is 'grabbing' the other output shaft in the same direction.

why don't you try it out for yourself?

Uwe. Going back to what you originally said:

UweM3 wrote:Turn one output flange and if the other output flange turns the SAME direction --> LSD! (blocking the input flange of course first)

It's got nothing at all to do with the pre-load and everything to do with the action of the planet and sun gears. The action of this gear set makes what you say physically impossible. Please, I went to great lengths to describe in my previous post how an LSD works, and I feel that this should be sufficient. Please, lets not debate this with you stating what you think I don't know, rather state what you do know.

The only way in which the two output shafts move together is if the input shaft is allowed to move freely! I believe that this is what you have observed up on the ramp. And that's not what you originally stated.

Edit: Confrontational comments removed and reworded to appear less tense.

Geoff,

Can you try not to be quite so confrontational ?

I don't doubt you know how a diff works, but I have to agree with Uwe on this one.

If I jack the rear of my car up and turn one rear wheel, the other wheel rotates in the same direction. This is with the car in gear, and the input shaft fixed.

I don't profess to understand exactly how this is achieved, but it's certainly what happens.

Ian.

No Ian, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

From what you have described, if you placed said vehicle on the ground, it would be possible to push the vehicle forward with the car in gear, without the propshaft turning. I simply cannot accept this as this proposes that the output shafts are effectively disengaged from the input shaft. Please try this if you don't believe me!! I can assure you that it is a physical impossibilty due to the action of the planet and sun gears. Short of posting an animation of how the LSD works, I am not sure how to explain myself further. I would, however, propose the book, "Fundamentals of Motor Vehicle Technology" by V.A.W Hillier as a good reference in support of my argument.

And by the way, this applies to both the clutch type and viscous type LSD's. And it really doesn't matter how badly worn out the units are, as this action is goverened by the sun and planet gears in the diff, not the LS mechanism.

EDIT: I'll be mindful of the confrontational issue in future. You are quite right about this of course, I'm afraid I tend to get carried away. I welcome your response.

How to make sure you have a LSD..

Try and contain one output shaft while turning the input shaft.
If the free output shaft rotates the diff is open.

Doing it with the Diff in the car.
jack up one wheel, put engine in 1st gear, try and rotate the wheel by hand, this will prove impossible.


I have seen enough E30´s with LSD´s that I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen where the driveshaft is fixed via the engine. and the rear jacked up and the wheels will rotate together. This literally means that the clutches are slipping so bad that it would never lock up.

BMW LSD´s lock in both directions so they lock on accelaration and de accelaration, what is beeing suggested is that it´s somehow possible to let the diff just FREE ride against the driveshaft, I can not accept that.
Assuming the driveshaft is INDEED fixed by the engine or any other means.

Gunni wrote:I have seen enough E30´s with LSD´s that I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen where the driveshaft is fixed via the engine and the rear jacked up and the wheels will rotate together.

Thank you Gunni, I was begining to feel the world was ganging up on me. And you, of all people, know how confrontational I can be, so your support means all the more to me.

Seeing as we are on the subject of diffs... I keep posting this question, but no-one has been able to answer it, I think I can guess the answer though. Perhaps the clever bods haven't seen it.

Do they have the same 25% lock or 75% slip(depending which way you look at it) on coast and accel? Are the ramp angles the same? I suspect you could make noteable handling improvements(on a track) from chopping and changing the ramp angles. 40% accel lock sounds great on first impression, but this is likely to hinder you come corner time.

I have a tran X diff in my shed of a 205 and it is set for 35/65 giving me 65% locking force on acceleration and 35 % locking force on coast. I can change it to 45/45 and also change it to fully interleaved and lightweight giving different locking characteristics, harsh or less harsh.

I wonder if the BMW LSD has the ability to accept these changes with custom designed ramp angles or not? Obviously aftermarket stuff is there, but its seldem cheap.

Anyone know?

well, feel free to pop round and have a go at my rear wheels when the car is jacked up. They turn BOTH the SAME direction when you turn one wheel. So I must have a very special car, it drives when it actually shouldn't

And yes when I have only one wheel jacked up and one on the ground it is hard (but not impossible) to spin the wheel which is in the air. Keep in mind the OEM diff is only locking 25% and the preload is exactly measured like this.

The only thing I may be wrong is the fixed input shaft, might need to be loose

Gunni wrote: I have seen enough E30´s with LSD´s that I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER seen where the driveshaft is fixed via the engine. and the rear jacked up and the wheels will rotate together. This literally means that the clutches are slipping so bad that it would never lock up.

Theoritically, either open diff or LSD, BOTH should not allow wheels to rotate together when the input shaft is locked. If they do, something is probably broken. Nothing to do with the clutches though. The clutches are there to keep the wheels together, but in order for both wheels to move, the input shaft also has to move. When the input shaft is locked, you will find it very hard to turn one wheel by hand. However, if you try hard enough, the wheels will eventually move. And when they do, it means you have over powered the clutches and the diff now works the same as an open diff and the wheels rotate in different directions.

Both wheels will rotate together only if the input shaft is free to move (e.g. propshaft disconnected)

BMW diffs might work differently from what I described though.