E30 Zone

Hi,

Thinking of building 2.0l M42 using M47 Crank and M44 pistons. Can get this one brand new very cheap.



523068 2246 861 37RC4 88

Not sure what this means but I'm guessing 2246 861 is a partial part number and 88 refers to the stroke.

Its from a Rover 75 that used the M47 (M47R) diesel engine.

Question is, before I jump, does it look right, I am 99% sure it is OK.

Only thing is the nose looks short, but then it does have the 8 counterweights (89.5mm crank has 4 according to MM).

On another note I will need to skim 2.5-3.0mm off the pistions, Do M44 pistons have a dish in them like M42 ones and when they are skimmed do the valve pockets need extending? I am leaving the head stock.

I'll prob buy new pistons as they are listed at $249 or 139 euros so should be £125 in the uk tops and you get rings and wrist pins etc in the set I think (looks like it in ETK)

I'm not looking for max power in all areas, just got a spare bottom end and fancy a project which will give me a better drive without going OTT. Budget is an intersting proposition as by the time you've got all the gaskets etc it never is...

I think the nose is a bit short but it can be adapted, looking for any advice really.

Thanks

Might be worth dropping tim_s a message, as far as I'm aware he's the only person on here who's dropped an M47 crank into an M42.

Sounds like a good project, I'd quite like a 2L M42 myself

Yep, Hoping Tim'll pick up this thread, he's on an active 2.1 build at the moment.

Rover one doesnt fit, ive bought one and can garentee it dunt fit, the stub on the ends to short.

Is the rover one the right stroke, bore spacing, shell diameters etc.?
Have you considered the adaptor route, not that much work, have you looked at the metricmechanic catalogue showing the adaptors required for the 89.6mm crank?

http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdfs/metr ... ooklet.pdf

Machine on oil pump drive, turn down and mill key way and make extension, gotta be sure it is a bloody good fit and prob grind the keys to suit so they don't move, but nothing that's impossibe, given the price of rover cranks...

Have you had any luck with getting a BMW crank, how much do you expect to spend...

Ya i looked but decided against the adaptor. Youve got enough stub to run the cam chain drive sprocket but non for the ancilleries so the adaptor will have to run all them and i cant see a good way of fitting an adaptor.

Plus in my set up it would have to run 30bhp of supercharger.

How cheeps cheep? If you want to make me an offer for mine an have a play feel free, itll probly end up being weighd in anyway, its mint andw the same as the m42 one in every way just a larger stroke and a shorter stub.

Bmw ones are £816.14 on back order from germany.

Cheap is £140 delivered (oh and it's new in the MG rover packaging), how cheap is yours posted to me, if you are junking it let me know what you want for it. I'll turn down the nose and make a sleeve adaptor to drive the crank sprocket and ancialliaries driven by woodruff key then either 2 more woodruff keys or a full length key.

I'm not looking for massive power and haven't got the SC drive to worry about

I've also got a perfect power SMT6 waiting for a resaon to be used, anyone one used one with success? Think I'll use it for this engine if I get there.

Since I cracked my last head I picked up a complete 95/96 M42 engine loom ancilliaries etc so I'll be going over to the serpentine belt drive and I have all the parts to use knock sensing, lambda, DISA etc. just need an unlocked ECU. All that may come later, but for now the next step is to finish installing my sequential LPG kit (wiring and filler to do)

Right, so appletree has kindly supplied me with a rover crank, and here's some pictures,

Front end, needs turning down, oil pump drive milling and extending


Back end appears to have had a timing ring on it at some point



Marking shows it to be 88mm stroke, so not an M47N



All in all a bit of an odd combination, just as long as there is enough meat on the nose and the timing ring mount doesn't give any hassle when balancing it should be fine, (but then I'm not going for 300bhp and driving a SC! )

You'll be the saviour of M42 weirdos everywhere if you can turn up an extension so we can run these. Best of luck!

Isn't the 96 'M42' the 1.9 M44 any way?

Looking forward to seeing how this goes

Did the crank turn up today simon?

The red stuff on it was a oily substance the guy i bought it off put on it to protect it. it just rubs/peeles off

appletree wrote:Did the crank turn up today simon?

The red stuff on it was a oily substance the guy i bought it off put on it to protect it. it just rubs/peeles off

Yep, I've got it, pics above, Thanks, looks like thetomc wants to get one done at the same time, his is a rover one too, but a 90mm stroke! if there both the same front end hopefully it'll be simple enough.

rix313 wrote:Isn't the 96 'M42' the 1.9 M44 any way?

Looking forward to seeing how this goes

Mine is definately an M42, but I think it is the last of the M42's built as it has 95 and 96 date stamps in the casting.

GrindCulture wrote:You'll be the saviour of M42 weirdos everywhere if you can turn up an extension so we can run these. Best of luck!

Can't see why it's not possible, my machinist thinks it'll be fine, if I can get a solution together I'll let everyone know. The cranks are so cheap everyone can have a bigger engine.

I might get it on the balancing machine thursday and see if it's in balance without the timing ring, I expect it will be, can see how good it really is though.

cool well i have an m47n crank the 90mm one i was looking at putting it in my m42 at some point. if you can get the snub nose addaptor made i would be very interested.

What rods, pistons, you going to use?

you might fine this link helpfull

http://www.m42club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6866

Hi pharaoh, i'll keep this thread updated. I'm planning on m44 pistons and rods if i can get some m42 rods would be fine too but m44 are lighter and i'd rather use the matched set

Right so I've now got a complete M44 engine, box and all anciliaries from a 97 318ti.

I'll be using the and rods pistons, not sure about the rest of it, depends if any of it is worth keeping, would I be better using the M44 block as well to save having to over bore my M42 block. Guess I'll be getting the ruler out...

soooo... been doing some sums, M42 has stroke of 81mm and M44 stroke of 83.5, given that the M44 pistons need (according to M42club.com) 2.5mm shaving giving a deck height of 0 and compression ratio of 10.8. This suggests that the block height (crank CL to top of the block) is the same or at least very similar.

The question is now I have a good running M44 engine can I build a bastardised M42/M44/M47 2.0litre? whilst selling off everthing else to pay for it!

Using the M44 block can I fit M42 lower timing cases oil pick ups and M42 head? Thus avoiding the need for machining a block out

using the modified M47 crank gives me 1997cc! Does anyone know much about the M44 blocks? I know the timing ring is on the crank, but if I use the front end M42 stuff I just need to plug a hole. Main query is over the fitting of the M42 timing case etc. I want to stick with the original M42 loom and ECU etc. as don't have the time to play with that many changes at the moment.

The inner timing case gasket (between the lower case and the block) is used on both M42 and M44 engines so looks promising.

I know I can get all these answers by taking both engines to pieces but easier to ask for others experience first...

Good god was any of that English! I think my brain is about to melt!

Good god was any of that English! I think my brain is about to melt!

sorry, I'm an engineer

If I was you, I'd drop it all into the M42 block, use the M44 cam timing setup and drop the M47 and M44 internals. The M44 ECU is ODB2 which has knock detection and some other sensory bits and pieces that's apparently a bit of a ballache to get to work in an E30. Also the head of the M44 is more tuned for economy and low down torque (something you'll not need with a longer stroke in a lighter car). With the M42 head, you'll still save some of the rev happy nature of the M42 and ultimately get more power.

I think we're both talking along the same lines, M47 Crank, M44 Block, rods and pistons, M42 Timing setup (later version, v similar to M44 with static guide where the re-direct pulley is on an E30 IS), M42 Head and all M42 inlet, wiring, cooling, ECU etc. especially as I have just modified the manifold and fitted LPG injection nozzles to it, giving 1997cc.

I can go with a M42 block but if I can use the M44 block it saves some money and effort getting it bored out to match the M44 pistons especially if the M44 pistons are already run in. You can't use the M42 pistons as you'd have to machine off nearly 4mm off the crown height which is too much.

I might try and setup the simplex timing chain as per metric mechanic, just need to work out which N series chain to use, the rest is easy machining, that and the lighter M44 rods and pistons should keep it revving, I've got a 6kg M20 flywheel on my car already so that helps.

Sounds good to me Although I'm not sure if the single row chain will be that worthwhile, but the N43 chains are said to be the correct pitch but the overall length isn't enough? It was a while ago I read that mind so my memory might have escaped me. Are you going to be using the stock ECU? Megasquirt might be a better option, but again costing comes into that. .

after a bit more digging, the BMW duplex chain is a standard 06B-2 Chain with 120 links

06B-2 = 3/8" inch pitch, double row.

therefore a 06B-1 Chain will do the job. so then there are 2 options, get a custom riveted 120link chain for the best spec I can find or use a removeable link. The only removable link that I would trust for this is from Renold chains using their synergy product.

Beyond that it's a case of machining the teeth off the sprockets.

On the ECU front, I agree that megasquirt may be the best option, but time and money is a stretch, alternatively I have an old SMT6 piggy back ECU, and I am nearly finished converting to sequential LPG (just got the wiring and safety checks to do) and the maps can be trimmed in that so I can fudge it to run on LPG and only run light load on petrol initially. Probably worth getting a wideband sensor though... the one from WBO2 on www.triggerwheels.com is going to be my weapon of choice as it is cheap @£124.99 including the sensor! and comes with additional logging inputs from RPM, pulse (speed) and 2x analogue signals and narrow band and 0-5v outputs.

odbod, i'm still dead keen to get in on this action.
From the pictures it looks like the noses of our cranks are the same so we'd need the same machining work done to both.



[I'm still intending to use the 135mm rods i've got with an m42 block and pistons. A 0.5mm thicker head gasket will bring all the dimensions back into check]

thetomc wrote

odbod, i'm still dead keen to get in on this action.

I know, so am I, just collecting some other bits and bobs, in the meantime can you get your M42 crank (inc. chain drive pulley and front pulley and bolt as an assy) out so I can get them over to the machinists to look at side by side with the other 2 rover cranks? I'm not going to have a chance in the next week or 2 to strip mine out of an engine.

Looks like I might not need to as I'm going to try and use the M44 block, rods and pistons.

Have you check what 0.5mm more headgasket will mean for the profile gasket? some guys in the states have used thick gaskets and suffered from oil leaks.

The spare bottom end i have is literally just crank, rods and block so no sprocket or timing gear i'm afraid.

RE Profile gasket: I'll have to have a think about gaskets. I'm sure there'll be a fix for that little problem.

No Problem, I'll try and get my crank sprockets off sooner rather than later, if you remove the crank that would be great.

I may end up with some spare timing gear from my M44/M42 engines.....

Hows this coming along? You're sticking with the M42 timing gear aren't you or are you going to hybridise the two?

I'm planning on sticking with the m42 timing gear but the set i am using is the later type with the static rail rather than the idler pulley.

I'm planning on going to a simplex chain but using a custom made up chain from renold.

I've got 2 ideas for the extension, 1 of these may require no machining on the crank but cost more, i need to talk to my machinist first.

Anyone want an m44 head?

Please excuse the spelling, my internet is down so this is on my phone!

is this getting a bit silly?

Inside of M42 Timing case, this is a late model and you can see the static guide rather than the pulley on the E30/E36 earlier models.


The late E36 block was the same casting as the M44 block, it has the boss for the crank position pick up from the crank shaft rather than at the front, although it is not machine out to accept the sensor, it seems that the later M42's were well on the way to being M44's

Do you know why they changed to guides from a sprocket?

This has the makings of a seriously interesting thread!!!

I'm planning on supercharging my road iS with either an Eaton or Rotrex and having an NA screamer for my track car.


Might stay 1.8 and build a 150-160bhp engine for the track car
Then build a 2L-S42 kinda thing on my spare engine then to drop in when the time comes when the rest of the car is ready and a few track outtings.


Interesting too about the static guide over the sproket too

appletree wrote:Do you know why they changed to guides from a sprocket?

Look at the parts cost! They cost way less than that annoying idler gear. I've also seen chain failures with the idler gear broken off due to the alloy where it mounts cracking.

So I've been to see my machinist and we've got a plan to add a new piece on the end of the crank, the plan is to machine off the nose of the crank, bore it out and thread it with a fine pitch left handed thread so it can't loosen when the engine is running. once the new piece is fitted (located on a short spigot and bore) and loctited in once tightened (very tight) the final OD of the nose will be machined up and the oil pump drive and keyways added. leaving with a crank that is a straight fit into the M42 engine.

I can't remember if there is a oil outlet on the front main bearing so this needs to be checked so it's not blocked up by any mods. But structually it wil be stronger than any 2 piece adaptor and should run straighter.

At the moment there are 2 cranks that are looking at being done and I'm waiting for a price, but obviously it will be cheaper if there are more. I know of one more maybe, but please let me know if you are serious as it's not exactly a £50 job...

On another note I'm not going to have time to post up pics of the whole inside of the M44 engine as I strip it so just ask if anyone want pics of anything in particular. I'll get aa many pictures of everything once some parts are coming together (pistons and crank mods mainly) but I'll keep updating when I can...

things have been quiet lately, it's the wrong time of year to get machining done as we are running up to the new motorsport season. In the mean time I am getting a COP plate made up and can get more done if anyone is interested. See link for group buy thread.

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... 59#1392059