E30 Zone

Wondering if anyone can help with this .
My cluster has soild indictors lit ,high beam lit ,fuel light on but showing half a tank the headlights aren't coming on and the indictors are on solid . I have just done an m52 swap and its wasn't like this until about 15mins after getting the engine running.
Just had a thought ,could i have knocked a plug on the steering column when pulling the ecu plug through?(don't think i did though)
Would a failed si board cause this ?

Appreciate any help/suggestion tia.

That's a new one. Very strange, but quite pretty!
Nothing to do with SI board.
Most likely an earthing issue, with power somehow back feeding to the indicator and headlamp indicator lamps, etc. on the side of the lamp that should be earthed.
Check the earthing point behind the glovebox area for a start.

Brianmoooore wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:45 am

That's a new one. Very strange, but quite pretty!
Nothing to do with SI board.
Most likely an earthing issue, with power somehow back feeding to the indicator and headlamp indicator lamps, etc. on the side of the lamp that should be earthed.
Check the earthing point behind the glovebox area for a start.

I will check the earth point behind the glovebox Brian.
Kind of thought it wasn't a common fault after a search revealed nothing ,just my luck at the moment one step forward two back with this car .
I properly wont get back to the car until the week end , is there anything else i can check so i have a few things to try ? Would pulling relays until the indicators go out help narrow it down ?

Brian the earth behind the glove box seems fine . I pulled all the relays one by one and only k4 seems to make difference. With k4 pulled out my cluster is normal and indicators work as they should but headlights don't work. When I pull the stock for high beam the cluster lights up as before.i have also check the earth on the inner wing for the headlight loom and that seems fine too.

Any input would be appreciated.

Is relay K4 the correct black double pole one?
Is youe original pic. taken with the lights off?

Brianmoooore wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:43 pm

Is relay K4 the correct black double pole one?
Is youe original pic. taken with the lights off?

I think its the correct relay it is black .original pic is taking with the lights on .

I would start with checking the indicator/main beam stalk switch sounds like it may have shorted out inside, they are plugged in at the side of the steering column.

Diagram for lights

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bzD5Li ... sp=sharing

fixedwheelnut wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:21 pm

I would start with checking the indicator/main beam stalk switch sounds like it may have shorted out inside, they are plugged in at the side of the steering column.

Diagram for lights

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bzD5Li ... sp=sharing

I will try another indicator stock got a few spares but non with the obc button

`Can you confirm if this is correct: The original pic. was taken with the engine running and the headlamp main beams turned on, but they were not lit.
The front fog lamps were not turned on, but they and their tell tale indicator were lit.
The indicators or hazard lamps were not turned on, but all six external indicator lamps were lit, plus the two warning lamps in the instrument cluster, and none of them were flashing.
There is approx. half a tank of fuel in the car. The low fuel warning lamp is lit*, and this is not a pre existing fault.
The red light that is lit at the bottom of the instrument cluster is the handbrake warning lamp, the handbrake is on, and this lamp should be lit.

* I think this one is being to be key to figuring this one out.

Brianmoooore wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:11 pm

`Can you confirm if this is correct: The original pic. was taken with the engine running and the headlamp main beams turned on, but they were not lit.
The front fog lamps were not turned on, but they and their tell tale indicator were lit.
The indicators or hazard lamps were not turned on, but all six external indicator lamps were lit, plus the two warning lamps in the instrument cluster, and none of them were flashing.
There is approx. half a tank of fuel in the car. The low fuel warning lamp is lit*, and this is not a pre existing fault.
The red light that is lit at the bottom of the instrument cluster is the handbrake warning lamp, the handbrake is on, and this lamp should be lit.

* I think this one is being to be key to figuring this one out.

Yes i from what i can remember that is correct. Apart from my the indicators on the wings weren't lit but it might be bulbs with them as they didn't work when i had k4 out either but the rest work ok with stock and when i tried the hazard switch.

One side of the low fuel lamp connects to a 12 volts ignition switched live that feeds several things on the instrument cluster main circuit board.
The other side of this warning lamp connects by a short copper track to pin B5 of the white cluster plug, and by a slightly longer copper track to pin C4 of the yellow cluster plug and to nowhere else.
The yellow connector will only have a plug in it if you have an OBC, and if you have, the wire only goes to a bit of high impedance circuitry inside the OBC.
The wire from B5 only goes to an open circuit switch inside the fuel level sender.
In other words, this side of the low fuel lamp connects to nothing, except when the tank is empty, so it should be impossible for it to light.
It is lit, so somewhere you must have a short circuit to this wire, and probably others, including the wire that goes to the headlamp main beam warning light.
From the information you've given me, I can only suggest you have some serious loom damage somewhere (probably) behind the instrument panel/glove box.
Did you check pin 20 of the engine loom plug/socket C101 when you did this conversion?

Just had a thought, while replying to another thread!
You haven't paired a 55 litre fuel tank to a 63 litre fuel gauge while doing this conversion, by any chance?
With that combination, the fuel gauge will read half when the tank is empty and the low fuel light is on because it should be.

My fuel tank is the one with a hole either side on top which i think is a 63 litre. i will check pin 20 , Just had a horrible thought and bet it is that . Can not remember if i have check it or never bothered forgetting the fact that the body loom wasn't changed when doing the reshell .The old shell has had engine swaps done previously and i think i was thinking along those lines .

That's a 63 litre tank, and if you can definitely say there's a reasonable amount of fuel in it, then we can be certain that the fuel light should not be on?
I take it that this is a 'hard' fault which is there all the time when the controls are as they were for the first pic., and doesn't come and go at will?
Might be worth pulling the three pin plug off of the fuel pump assembly to confirm that the light does still stay on. Don't do anything that would make the low fuel switch turn on while this fault is undiagnosed, since it might do further damage.
If pin 20 of the C101 has a brown wire connected to it on the body side, it's not welcome news. If the wire is present, but burnt up, then it's bad news.
The brown wire on 20 isn't a problem as long as there's nothing connoted to pin 20 on the engine loom side. The problems arise when there's a red/yellow connected to it.

Checked pin 20 and body loom side is red/yellow and engine loom side is green purple.

Fuel tank does have the least around 20 litres in it .

Yeah cluster goes like that when headlight switched is pulled full out ,If i remember correct it isn't lit up like that on the first pull for sidelights .
(Sorry cars not near me and only had 5mins to pop in and check pin 20)

body loom side engine loom side

Does the car have ABS?
Are you sure you're not confusing 20 with 13, which is right next to it. Green/purple is the colour of all the fuel pump wiring, except one short piece, and goes through pin 13.
The one short piece that is normally not green/purple, is black/red, and is the piece between the C101 body socket and fuse 11.

Car doesn't have abs .
I think you are right and I has the wrong pin on the engine side. Looks like nothing is in pin 20 on the engine side from the pic

If pin 20 is unused, and never has been, that's the end of that theory. Still something powering that low fuel light, though, and it has to be loom damage, a faulty low fuel switch (very unlikely, but try unplugging it to confirm), or some weird internal fault on the instrument cluster main board.
Does the car have an OBC in place of the clock?
When you next get to the car try unplugging first the white cluster plug, and see what that does to the fault, then reconnect it, and try unplugging the blue plug.
I've no idea exactly what that might tell me yet, but it might give an idea as to where the fault voltage is coming from. Odds on favourite is the white/purple wire to the main beam warning light, which is pin 12 of the blue plug, but it might be shorting to other wires in the loom before it reaches the cluster.

Yes it has a 13 button obc. i will try what you said tomorrow if i can find time from work .
I have a spare cluster but it might not be a good idea at this point to try it ?

Yes, try the spare one. All info. helps in working out this weird one.
Since you have an OBC, test with the yellow plug disconnected as well. It will be even weirder if this makes a difference, but it's more data.

Brianmoooore wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:27 pm

Yes, try the spare one. All info. helps in working out this weird one.
Since you have an OBC, test with the yellow plug disconnected as well. It will be even weirder if this makes a difference, but it's more data.

Will do Brian thanks.

white plug out
yellow plug out
blue plug out

Spare cluster same coding plug

Low fuel light was due to low fuel as it ran out today . 20l can was still sitting there full sorry (old age is obviously getting to me as i could have swore i put it in )Light went out when i put the fuel in but it is reading 3/4 full

I also opened up the fuse board today as i was in there fitting a danthe fan loom but all seemed fine. once back together i put the ignition on (without starting ) and my headlight came on when i pulled the switch right out . I then pulled the high beam and it went back to how its was .
I did try opening and wiggling the fusebox again but couldn't get the headlights to work again .

shedrool83 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:17 pm

Low fuel light was due to low fuel as it ran out today . 20l can was still sitting there full sorry (old age is obviously getting to me as i could have swore i put it in )Light went out when i put the fuel in but it is reading 3/4 full

That means that up to now I've been on a wild goose chase, since I was convinced that this light was the key to the problem!
You have the wrong fuel gauge in your cluster, or the LH level sender has stuck in the full position.
I'll have another think abut this later, and report back.
I take it the above pics. were taken with the ignition on, but engine not running, handbrake on, headlamp switch on and foglight switch off?
Flash doesn't help! Can you confirm which indicator warning lights are on or off in all the pics., please.

ignition on, but engine not running, handbrake on, headlamp switch on and fog light switch off

blue plug out = n/s indicator warning light
white plug out = o/s indicator waring light
yellow plug out both indicator waring lights

That gauge is a 63 litre version, if the drivers side sensor wire is trapped/damaged and shorting to earth this would give a faulty fuel level of exactly 1 half when the other side of the tank is empty (as you have confirmed)
The low level warning signal wire is also on the drivers side
When you fitted the tank Jake did you make sure the wiring looms were free? It is possible to trap them between the tank and body, when you bolt the tank up fully this would give the wires a nice squeeze

DanThe wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:19 pm

That gauge is a 63 litre version, if the drivers side sensor wire is trapped/damaged and shorting to earth this would give a faulty fuel level of exactly 1 half when the other side of the tank is empty (as you have confirmed)
The low level warning signal wire is also on the drivers side
When you fitted the tank Jake did you make sure the wiring looms were free? It is possible to trap them between the tank and body, when you bolt the tank up fully this would give the wires a nice squeeze

I will check it out Dan when i have it up in the air to change the starter which decided it would also start sticking yesterday .

Fixed the issue with this today so thought i would update this just incase someone every has this .

After pulling relays and fuses i found it was either a problem with the loom from the fusebox to the head lights or the loom for the fusebox to the electric fan . I rechecked every plug,the fan loom connections and the earth points on the inner wing was removed and cleaned for a second time and everything is fine now . I can only assume it was the inner wing earth point or the plug onto the fan wasn't right on but i'm just glad its working now.


Thanks for all the input and sorry to Brian re the fuel .

Electric fan?

Is that an original fitment?

Ben

BenHar wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:45 pm

Electric fan?

Is that an original fitment?

Ben

No Ben it had been fitted as part of the engine swap.

Ah, sorry, I missed the M52 swap bit.

That probably explains why we don't see this fault very often!

Ben

I can see what happened here, now that I know the answer.
The earthing points for the headlamps, front foglamps and front indicators were all connected together, but insulated from earth.
The headlamp main beams were switched on, so the blue warning light was and should be lit.
The main beams weren't lit, so they were effectively just a 0.5 or so ohm resistor feeding power to the earthing point for the fogs and indicators.
The rear indicator earths were OK, so the front and rear indicators were effectively connected in series.
They were lit, but it, and presented a total resistance of about 7 ohms, so were getting most of six volts across each lamp, including the green ones in the cluster.
You told me the fog lights were not turned on, but were lit. I cannot see how this would be possible. The two unlit foglamps would present a resistance of about 0.5 ohms, the same as the headlamps, so the just under 12 volts on their earth wire would pass straight through the two lamps and light the green foglight warning light.
The warning light has a resistance of about 130 ohms, so only 0.5/130 of the just under 12 volts = 0.05 volts would be trying to light the front fogs.
I cannot solve these problems without accurate information in every detail.

BenHar wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:49 pm

Ah, sorry, I missed the M52 swap bit.

That probably explains why we don't see this fault very often!

Ben

Don't think the M52 was was anything to do with it. The rogue voltage was from the main beam headlamps. It could have been contributed to by the fan if that earth was also connected with the other faulty earths, but the fan probably wasn't trying to run when the pic. was taken, and if it was, the extra voltage contributed would have been hardly significant - about a quarter of a volt.

Brianmoooore wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:26 pm

BenHar wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:49 pm

Ah, sorry, I missed the M52 swap bit.

That probably explains why we don't see this fault very often!

Ben

Don't think the M52 was was anything to do with it. The rogue voltage was from the main beam headlamps. It could have been contributed to by the fan if that earth was also connected with the other faulty earths, but the fan probably wasn't trying to run when the pic. was taken, and if it was, the extra voltage contributed would have been hardly significant - about a quarter of a volt.

The M52 conversion lead to that earth point being undone and messed around with I should think.

Ben