E30 Zone

Hello all,

Having been on cloud 9 for a week or so, reality is setting back in. My first thoughts on my exhaust noises were manifold leak, I know the gasket needs doing and last weekend I found that the stud nearest the bulkhead had been snapped off and the stud left in. Have just got back form the exhaust place and everything else is sorted, but it's still leaking from the manifold.
Now I need this done, but can it be easily done?
I appreciate there is bugger all room to do anything with the head on, so does it need to come off?
And is this really a DIY job? If so what tools are needed?

Thanks for your help, I just wish the last owner had sorted this, the strange part is it never bew on the std manifold, otherwise it would have been done ages ago

is it broken off flush with the head? If yes I would check prices for a garage to remove it. If there isnt space they may refuse, or tell you the head needs to come off.

Hovever if you can see some thread (enough to get 2 nuts on the end) DIY is the choice.

Have you tried tightening the other bolts up more?

I saw head stud and got worried!

It's exhaust manifold stud?

There are places which can sort this apparently!

It's snapped actually in the head, not flush, but a few mm inside.
Very first stud after the bulkhead.
Have been reading up on how this can warp the head and manifold so I'm gutted I'm on limited running till it's done. Sounds aweful too, loud ticking.
Just want a quick fix so I can carry on enjoying the performance

It looks like a head off job to me.

They will drill a small hole in the center of the stud, and use a stud extractor. Then if they slip up and drill through your head (into the water jacket) THEY fuk the head and would have to replace it.

I cant think of any "quick fix" Although you could try Very High Temperature gasket sealant.

smithy318i wrote:It looks like a head off job to me.

They will drill a small hole in the center of the stud, and use a stud extractor. Then if they slip up and drill through your head (into the water jacket) THEY fuk the head and would have to replace it.

I cant think of any "quick fix" Although you could try Very High Temperature gasket sealant.

wherecan i get that stuff
i got 3 stapped clean onthe 320 and its bugging me
changing the engine anyways when funds allow but the ticking is driving me mad
just ask craig and nick

Don't under any circumstances use a stud extractor. The stud broke for a reason - it's stuck in, and a stud extractor won't move it either.
If you can't fix it with the head on, take it off and have it removed by spark erosion.
I think that's the end of the line though, I'm sure you could sort it out with a tube of something messy.

cnt be done with head on at all so garages have told me

so its a head off job you could try a tap n die on the stud if u can get into it or a fine drill bill reverse thread and some heat this may budge it enough to twist out

think garage charges about 30quid a stud but this is with head off
i have 2 broken but cnt b arsed spending cash doing it will hav a go meself when engines out next

i noticed late yesterday i had a snapped bleed nipple in one of my brake calipers.
today i drilled it out big enough to get a stud extractor in.
tried to get stud extractors in 3 different places, on my way to the 4th
i passed halfrauds.
went in, couldn't see any so asked two 'lads', who didn't have a clue
what i was talking about.
spotted them as i was leaving the shop, and then i had to explain to the 'lads' what they were for
any way got the nipple out in the end, with a little help from my trusty little friend........wd40!

Are you taking the manifold off? If so take one of the other studs out and see how deep the hole is, all the studs are the same part so I assume the holes are all the same depth, check as see if they protrude from the manifold the same distance. If they do then you know how deep you have to drill.
Agreed on the stud extractor thought, don't use it, the stud you can drill, the broken end of a stud extractor you can't...

Small hole drilled 1st of all, then drill in with a bit 1mm smaller than the stud, that should strip off most of the material, then run a tap into it to clear out the rest of the threads. If it gets messed up you can always Helicoil it.

Or you can take it to a garage... I know I am nuts enough to try it lol..

Why does the head have to come off ?
If your going to go to that length, then why not just take the engine out and do it ?

smithy318i wrote:It looks like a head off job to me.

They will drill a small hole in the center of the stud, and use a stud extractor. Then if they slip up and drill through your head (into the water jacket) THEY fuk the head and would have to replace it.

I cant think of any "quick fix" Although you could try Very High Temperature gasket sealant.

fozzy i hav a quick fix, which saved my current m30

get a big steel washer, 2mm thick and inside hole a couple of mm larger than stud diameter. hold the washer flat against the cylinder head with hole centred around sheared stud. get as good an angle as possible and mig-weld on high power from stud to washer and back. cross fingers and gently turn washer anticlockwise with molegrips.

the heat shock from the welder will help break the corrosion seal on the stud. on my car this unscrewed the stud perfectly and the engine has endured thousands of miles of thrashing since with no ill-effects.

using a stud extractor gives a good chance of scrapping the head if it breaks in the hole.

has this been cured yet? as ive got the same problem and my beloved 2.5 is sitting onn my drive crying at me to get it fixed.

Those studs aren't that hard are they?

Surely you could whip the head off, make up a drill guide that bolts onto some of the other studs so that you can be sure you're going in square and then just drill the bugger out?

I'm planning on drilling the old stud out, start with small drill and work up to the right size before tapping it to make sure all is cool.

Can't do this till this weekend as I need the car for work, so will advise when it's done. Already ordered a new gasket and some high tensile bolts to replace the other studs.

I'm sure it will take me hours to do right, but def cheaper than getting the garage to do it!

Will try pics too

And thanks for all the other ideas, will try them if I can't get this drilling option to work.

I'd buy a LOT of drills in each size if it were me, up to about 6.5 or 7mm. The rest should oull out being that thin

Turbo-Brown wrote:I'd buy a LOT of drills in each size if it were me, up to about 6.5 or 7mm. The rest should oull out being that thin

I have a full set of HSS drills to use so will take my time when I do this, my only real issue is the amount of space I don't have to work in, hopefully a fellow zoner will be able to lend me his right angle drill. Other wise I'll be spunking some cash on tools I'll only use once!

Tobys' fix is a good'un if it works....I've done a similar thing with a large steel nut, in the past, and it worked!

If you are gonna drill it, take the head off and make sure the bit of stud left in the head has a reasonable flat surface...then centre punch it so there is a guide for the drill bit...Use a very slow speed drill to minimise the chance of it slipping and damaging the ally of the head...

The water jacket is VERY close to that hole and if you poke into that, you can start looking for a new head!
Also worth noting that HSS drill bits are very brittle and very hard...If one snaps off inside the stud you won't be able to drill that out so easily either!

'ello

If its just the one, maybe it might be worth trying to just replace the gasket. When tightening the other bolts, take into account the missing one. Also use the gearbox exhaust mount to get the best angle.

~This may work and its better than messing around a splitting a head. One of mine is missing and i did the above and it still fine 2 or so years later. Mine is a four pot though, but to me it should be easier with a 6 pot as you have more bolts.

might be worth replacing other studs before doing this though, as you dont want more than one broken one.

my stud hole is leaking oil badly. so does that mean my head is screwed?

obviously you can do what you want with it, it's your car!

but why go to the effort of taking the head off without at least trying to weld a washer on. it took literally 5 minutes and didn't leave a scratch. no swarf, no damaged threads in the head, no risk of puncturing a water jacket... just a neatly unscrewed half-stud with washer welded on the end!

thing is, if it doesn't work (i.e. can't get a good enough weld to the stud), you've not lost or damaged anything!

drilling a hard steel stud out of a soft aly head ain't going to be fun

Hey Toby but brilliant article in PPC mag about the MX-5

Toby_Unna wrote:obviously you can do what you want with it, it's your car!

but why go to the effort of taking the head off without at least trying to weld a washer on. it took literally 5 minutes and didn't leave a scratch. no swarf, no damaged threads in the head, no risk of puncturing a water jacket... just a neatly unscrewed half-stud with washer welded on the end!

thing is, if it doesn't work (i.e. can't get a good enough weld to the stud), you've not lost or damaged anything!

drilling a hard steel stud out of a soft aly head ain't going to be fun

true

E30BeemerLad wrote:Hey Toby but brilliant article in PPC mag about the MX-5

pity will spelt my name wrong

Toby,

I don't have a welder, hence the drilling, but if I did go see an engineer I know and he's got a stud remover that uses a reverse thread and hes offered to help do it, so if that's not succesful I'll be down the local garage and ask them to weld and remove for me.

I'm sh1tting myself about drilling into a ally head, I may get pro help if it comes to that.

Thanks again for all your help, just hope it gets fixed asap.

Mark.

I don't have a welder

Yea thats the reason why I mentioned the above.

But agreed with toby its a waste of time if it doesn't work....I also suspect taking a m10 manifold off is slightly easier than an m20..less bolts more room etc etc.

Interesting thread, I have similar problems myself ( M20 )

To my knowledge I have at least three studs sheared, two at the rad end ( where the leak is worst ) and one at the bulkhead end. Sounds like a V8 on start up but once some heat is in there it quietens down, but I know it a job that needs doing

Trouble is there are quite a few that wont budge or are rounded off, its gonna be a mission!

From what I can see you wont get a drill in at the bulkhead end but you can get special 90' adaptors that allow you to get in, but accurate drilling would be a 'kin mare

That welding idea sounds a winner, if anyone's interested in trying this I can make ( in 2.0mm upto 3.0mm ) 20mm square washers, so you would be able to put a spanner on or get better grip with mole grips

I really don't want to split the head and I don't have the facilities to remove the engine - or the time

Hope you get it sorted Foz

Matt

why use a washer when u can use a nut?
find some one wit an arc welder and buy a 29.9 welding rod
just keep addin a bit at a time til the stud is built up enough. hammer a nut on to the welded stud and weld the nut to it. as mentioned the shock of the heat and a slow back and forward motion should take it out.
be warned tho.. you will have the arse fallin out of your pants tryin to drill this if it goes pear shapped..

Well, time to put my money where my mouth is!

Just sheared the big lonf inlet manifold stud on mine

Had a quick test drill of the snapped off bit and it doesn't seem too reluctant to cut.

I would recommend using a lot of RTD when drilling though, just to lessen the likelyhood of snapping the smaller drill bits.

Just when you think a day can't get any worse eh?

slideways wrote:why use a washer when u can use a nut?

because you can do the weld in a single, high power blast to get everything red hot and end up with a very strong weld. i've tried this using nuts and it's much harder to get a really strong weld, in my experience the nut will often just break off, or the weld will shear.

there's no problem gripping the washer, the big problem is getting a weld to the stud that will take the twisting force

alex maybe try weld it now?!

Can I add my two penn'orth?

Because the studs are steel and the head is alloy, you get corrosion on the thread interface. The heat of the engine accelerates this process, so most old engines are going to have studs which stick. I think e30s also have thread locking compound on the studs?

You stand most chance of getting it out with the engine hot, as it'll be relatively loose, (ally expands at twice the rate of steel when it's heated, so when its hot the hole is bigger than the stud) but doing it with the head still on is so high risk. Most ordinary garage mechanics are not good enough to do this job, you need an apprenticeship trained Fitter.

Drilling out will work, but you really need a bench milling machine, so that the hole stays more or less concentric. Using a hand drill is likely to cause a lot of damage if it slips, especially as you get to the larger sizes.

I would take the head off, you can't afford not to. Then get a drift and whack the end of the stud a few times to loosen it. Apply some releasing oil which is high in phosphoric acid. WD40 will do, but there are better products. Or use diesel, which uses phosporic acid for combustion. This converts the rust from iron oxide to iron phosphate, which takes up less volume than rust. Leave for a few days.

Then the choice is yours. Drill it or use a stud extractor. You MUST centre-punch the stud. I personally would use the stud extractor, as the better quality sets take a lot to make them snap, i.e Goliath. Avoid the Halfords set as, although they seem to making great efforts to produce good tools, the quality may not be what is needed.

You can get a 'feel' when using extractors as to how much torque they'll take before they snap. Drill the biggest hole you can get into the core of the stud , only about 5-6 mm deep. There is about 15 mm of stud in that hole.

If it won't turn then you'll have to use gentle heat. You could try playing a blowtorch on the area, but you could easily warp the head if you let it get too hot. You could put the head into your domestic bath with the hottest water you can stand, but then you might have to change the bath! The family might not be happy. That'd mean stripping the head of course, asthe carbon steel parts must not be wetted with water.

The tip about the washer is brilliant, (one for the notebook), but it may not work if you need more than one weld layer, as the flux needs to be chipped off the weld after each run. If your stud is deep below the head surface the weld may not catch on the top of the stud. Bear in mind that steel melts at 1200 degrees C, wheras aluminium is much lower, so using welding equipment when you're not used to it could melt the head!

Hope this helps

I figure that if I drill it and it works then great, if I break a drill, I can weld it anyway

Also, if it's hollow when I weld it, the fastner should collapse more readily as the weld cools.

Toby_Unna wrote:

smithy318i wrote:It looks like a head off job to me.

They will drill a small hole in the center of the stud, and use a stud extractor. Then if they slip up and drill through your head (into the water jacket) THEY fuk the head and would have to replace it.

I cant think of any "quick fix" Although you could try Very High Temperature gasket sealant.

fozzy i hav a quick fix, which saved my current m30

get a big steel washer, 2mm thick and inside hole a couple of mm larger than stud diameter. hold the washer flat against the cylinder head with hole centred around sheared stud. get as good an angle as possible and mig-weld on high power from stud to washer and back. cross fingers and gently turn washer anticlockwise with molegrips.

the heat shock from the welder will help break the corrosion seal on the stud. on my car this unscrewed the stud perfectly and the engine has endured thousands of miles of thrashing since with no ill-effects.

using a stud extractor gives a good chance of scrapping the head if it breaks in the hole.

i used this method on richy's m20 yesterday,
it worked a treat.
i welded a bolt to the washer, then used a socket to undo.
thank's toby for the idea.

hi guys my cab is going into have the head off tommorow as 2 studs have snapped off clean very deep inside, and i cant put up with the ticking any longer. at the momment the car is simply eating cash:( but i knew this would be the case, i will post the results of this when the car is done. items replaced in last few days 2 engine mounts yes they both went at same time:( new starter. new breather pipe, new rad, new viscous, new windscreen the head off manifold tomoz, then onto the bodywork with 3 arches being done petrol cap area new drivers door, new bootlid new bonnet, then when all the rot is done full respray in miami blue, sat on alpinas. ill be honest i got done over on this motor but like so many other members whats done is done and you can only go forward, its a money pit but i have a good feeling for how she will look next summer:) if anyone has a set of mtech2 cab side skirts lying around (i doubt it) i realy need a set as i have orig mtech2 sport ones and they dont fit:( cheers guys i went off on 1 there hehe.

I'd DIY it too. Good advice further up the thread...
head off...hammer and punch stud....leave in a bath of releashing oil for a day or so....centre punch....drill small hole....TRY a stud remover but if it doesn't move easily abandon that idea.
I'd drill it out within 1-2mm of the stud diameter. Then I'd use a hammer and centre punch to try and drift/collapse the remains.