another electric windows question

[Ilkorin]

I've hit a bit of a snag when it comes to figuring out the electric windows...

The issue is the windows don't work without a door open:

- opening either driver or passenger doors will allow the windows to operate
- I have checked fuse 17 - it's fine
- I have bridged the appropriate relay (can't quite remember the number off the top of my head) and the windows work properly
- I switched the relay with the horn relay to test and the horn works fine, and windows do not, so the relay is fine

that leads me to believe that the relay isn't getting a signal to switch when the ignition is on? does anyone know where to look?

also on an unrelated (but rather silly) question - is there an interior light delay on all spec levels or was it an option? if it was standard, how come mine doesn't work? :p

[Brianmoooore]

Do the heater fan and/or door mirrors work?
IIRC, the light delay was standard on SE models, but a rare option on others.

[Ilkorin]

Mirrors and heater fan work perfectly....

Ahh right...was just asking on the off chance the delay was related to the problem! :p (plus it would be a nice thing to have!)

[Brianmoooore]

Was the relay you bridged in the fusebox or behind the glovebox?

[Ilkorin]

it was the relay in the fusebox following a post you made on someone else's topic.........

just checked it out, it's relay K5 and the pins bridged were 30 and 87 (I think)

[Brianmoooore]

Right, reply 20,000! Will balloons and streamers fall from the ceiling when I press the enter key??
There are two unloader relays, K5 and K7. K5 is for the windows/roof and K7 is for the mirrors/fan.
They share the same control circuit (starter motor), and you confirm K7 is working, so there doesn't appear to be a problem here.
The supply to the coil of K7 is from the ignition switched live fuse 10, so this must be reaching the fusebox OK. The supply to K5's coil comes direct from the ignition switched line, before fuse 10, so, in short, if all your tests are as you say, all should be in working order!
Is there a possibility that someone has been playing in the past, and has modified K7? Do the heater fan and mirrors only work with the ignition on to position 2? Do they stop working if you pull out K7?

[Ilkorin]

Heater fan and mirrors work with ignition in position 2 or the engine on and stop working with relay K7 pulled out....

[SPADGE]

Right, reply 20,000! Will balloons and streamers fall from the ceiling when I press the enter key??

I doubt that would have happened Brian but i suspect the blokes in white coats may arrive shortly to cart you off to the funny farm

Ever thought of taking up golf

[Ilkorin]

Right, reply 20,000! Will balloons and streamers fall from the ceiling when I press the enter key??
There are two unloader relays, K5 and K7. K5 is for the windows/roof and K7 is for the mirrors/fan.
They share the same control circuit (starter motor), and you confirm K7 is working, so there doesn't appear to be a problem here.
The supply to the coil of K7 is from the ignition switched live fuse 10, so this must be reaching the fusebox OK. The supply to K5's coil comes direct from the ignition switched line, before fuse 10, so, in short, if all your tests are as you say, all should be in working order!
Is there a possibility that someone has been playing in the past, and has modified K7? Do the heater fan and mirrors only work with the ignition on to position 2? Do they stop working if you pull out K7?

haha silly me! I didn't realise that you were referring to the number of posts you made - congrats and thanks for sticking with this little brain teaser!

[2_stroke]

erm, thread hijack

my mirrors heater and windows dont work, what do i need to do to make them work.

if you could tell me a cirtain point to live on the ignition or something simple so they will work that would be brill

BTW none of the wireing around the starter is standard, so it would be very orkward for me just to return all the bits to standard

Right, reply 20,000! Will balloons and streamers fall from the ceiling when I press the enter key??
There are two unloader relays, K5 and K7. K5 is for the windows/roof and K7 is for the mirrors/fan.
They share the same control circuit (starter motor), and you confirm K7 is working, so there doesn't appear to be a problem here.
The supply to the coil of K7 is from the ignition switched live fuse 10, so this must be reaching the fusebox OK. The supply to K5's coil comes direct from the ignition switched line, before fuse 10, so, in short, if all your tests are as you say, all should be in working order!
Is there a possibility that someone has been playing in the past, and has modified K7? Do the heater fan and mirrors only work with the ignition on to position 2? Do they stop working if you pull out K7?

i have read all of this but am not quite bright enough to deduce how to mend it

any help would be awsome, sorry again for the hijack

[Ilkorin]

it sounds like fuse 10 is the place to start......... not sure what to do if the starter wiring isn't standard though.....

I guess similarly to what I did on K5 to check the circuit was good is bridge pins 30 and 87 and see if it works then........then maybe do the same on K7? (don't try this till brian confirms though! - the havoc caused by bridging the wrong pins could be pretty bad)..........

if they do work and fuse 10 is good then it's the ignition switch or thereabouts?

am I right in assuming the windows open if you've got a door open?

[2_stroke]

oh yes but only the drivers door?!?! weird i know, but when i did the 2.5 transplant i had to get a mate to come and sort the electrics to make it run, we didnt care much about the fancy stuff inside, but now the weather is getting worse its nice to be able to de-mist your windows

[Ilkorin]

Hmmm...From what I know if the windows work only on one door, there's something wrong with one of the door pin switches (going to be the passenger door). Might be worth pulling it apart to see what's what, but don't lose the wires in the bodywork when you take it out!

Which is a good point to bring up because someone before me had hacked mine on so the windows were always active even with the doors closed and ignition off. I pulled the door pin switch apart and fixed it like it should be, but now I have this problem - would that have made a difference?

[2_stroke]

i dont get this at all, if i was to bridge some relays, can anyone tell me which pins to mess with so i can see if that fixes it?

[Brianmoooore]

it sounds like fuse 10 is the place to start

Fuse 10 only controls relay K7, which already works.
Apart from F10 being in the feed to K7, K5 and K7 share exactly the same control circuit. There's no way K7 should work and not K5, other than if K5 was dud, unless there's some circuit fault inside the fusebox, fairly close to the relays.

[2_stroke]

ok then this is all going over my head, i realy am crap at electrics, cant i just hard wire them all in on the ignition live so they stop when the engine is off, but i can use them all when its running?

[Ilkorin]

Right....I think I've got my head around the system now. So when the ignition is turned to position 2, both relays K5 and K7 switch (unless F10 is blown, preventing K7 from switching)

K7 controls the heater fan and mirrors, which will work immediately after switching

K5 controls the windows which will work immediately after switching provided F17 is not blown

Now I see where the issue comes in.......

Since the mirrors and windows work properly, the ignition switch works, along with K7 and F10. This means K5 should be getting a signal to switch. I've tested K5 and it works, so that means it is definitely switching. F17 is intact so the windows should be working. This basically implies that the system is working perfectly.

after bridging the pins on K5, the windows work so there must be something between the ignition source and the fusebox that prevents the signal. Since there aren't any fuses (normally) I'm guessing a broken wire somewhere? are there any modifications (window closure module perhaps?) that require this connection to be spliced/clipped?

I'll probably get the multimeter out this weekend and have a poke around

[jermyns]

Ilkorin,

Had exactly this problem with a e320 I owned In Singapore. Had to open either passenger door to be able to operate the driver's side window. Never got around to figuring it out, but suspected that it may have been a wiring fault in one of the door switches, but as stated, didn't really look that hard.

I've also seen another thread somewhere where this was the problem, so will be very interested in you figuring it out and letting us all know what the answer is!

[Brianmoooore]

Right....I think I've got my head around the system now. So when the ignition is turned to position 2, both relays K5 and K7 switch (unless F10 is blown, preventing K7 from switching)

K7 controls the heater fan and mirrors, which will work immediately after switching

K5 controls the windows which will work immediately after switching provided F17 is not blown

Now I see where the issue comes in.......

Since the mirrors and windows work properly, the ignition switch works, along with K7 and F10. This means K5 should be getting a signal to switch. I've tested K5 and it works, so that means it is definitely switching. F17 is intact so the windows should be working. This basically implies that the system is working perfectly.

after bridging the pins on K5, the windows work so there must be something between the ignition source and the fusebox that prevents the signal. Since there aren't any fuses (normally) I'm guessing a broken wire somewhere? are there any modifications (window closure module perhaps?) that require this connection to be spliced/clipped?

I'll probably get the multimeter out this weekend and have a poke around

All totally correct - but it's the same ignition source that feeds F10 that feeds K5 direct!
If you open up the fusebox, you will see that the ignition live (green) wire connects to the fusebox PCB near F10 as part of a 5(?) pin plug.
The PCB print goes directly to the inner edge of F10, and, by a fairly tortuous route, to the coil of K5.
A green/white flying lead goes from the outer edge of F10 to the coil of K7.
A green/black flying lead goes first to the other end of the coil of K7, loops out again, and over to the other coil pin of K5.

[Daz318is]

Hi, Just a thought, do windows still work with the door open if you disconnect the interior light switch?
if not then you know 2 things: 1, its the earth from the switch that your windows are using and 2 the wiring in the doors is not at fault and just making contact with the door open.
if they do work then i would suggest its the wiring between the door and the car somewhere in the rubber tubing maybe

Hope this helps somebody

Darren

[2_stroke]

sorry i still dont get any of it, if i put a direct live to fuse 10, will this then work, solong as the relays arnt nackered?

[Ilkorin]

Right, a small update....got the meter on the other two pins of the relay (85 and 86) and gave the ignition a switch to the second position - No current.

I guess that means I'm gonna open up the fusebox - any nasty surprises that I should know about?

[Brianmoooore]

Three self tappers hold the top on the fusebox (one under a relay). Don't touch the recesses hex cap bolt!
The mass of wires joined to it tend to make the top difficult to lift, but it's safe to pull fairly hard. There's one plug pushed onto the underside - make sure this is fully on when you put it back together.

[2_stroke]

ive solved it guys, we took a direct ignition live and put it to fuses 19 and 17, on mine atleast this seems to have solved it

[Brianmoooore]

ive solved it guys, we took a direct ignition live and put it to fuses 19 and 17, on mine atleast this seems to have solved it

That's not a cure - that's a bodge!

[2_stroke]

but it worked and since its inside the box nobody can see it and it only works with the ignition on, so how is it bad?

[Brianmoooore]

so how is it bad?

1/ You have disabled the unloader function, which is there for good reasons.
2/ You still have faulty wiring, which could be broken wiring with exposed ends or damaged insulation, that could short to earth or other wiring at any time.
3/The wiring in a car decreases in size as the current demands on it becomes less. It starts off as a thick wire at the ignition switch, and decreases in size at branches, depending on the current demands of the particular branch. By injecting power where it shouldn't be, you are changing the current distribution, risking overloading wires.
4/ If the fault spontaneously cleared itself, you would lock the ignition on, and be unable to stop the engine.

[Ilkorin]

Sorry for sounding like an idiot but where does fuse 19 come into this?

The list says lights, mirrors and aux cooling fan - is this just another circuit starting from the ignition live or is it interlinked?

[Brianmoooore]

Fuse 19 (7.5A) is fed by unloader relay K7, and won't last long when the heater fan starts drawing power (back feeding) through it.