brake upgrades

[dav325i]

hi there folks.just looking to pick folks brains again
my car is just about to get new brakes.its will probably be needing new disk and pads thing is i think the origanal brakes are pretty crap tbh.
was just wondering if it possible to use brakes from another model bm or a newer car that would be more or less a straight swap an readily availible ie cheap lol.
car is a 325i sport and its on standard brakes at the minute but they reall dont seem up to the job
cars got 17's on it so hopefully size shouldnt be a problem.
anyone any ideas
cheers again for any help

[DanThe]

Im pretty sure those are the biggest e30 brakes came,
you could use uprated aftermarket dics and pads,
eg, blackdiamond, EBC
Braided brakehoses improve braking perfomance, not sure whether its noticable or not though.
A better servo could be the cheapest way to go mate

[Dan318-is]

the cheapest easiest way to go is fluid, something like ATE superblue fluid or something

ferrodo or mintex pads tend to be the best, also ATE or zimmermin slotted discs are the best. neebry buy drilled as they crack to easily.

thirdly, remember if you uprate ur master cylinder to get a smaller one nott a bigger one; most peopel thing a bigger cylinder means more effort overall, this is not the case; a smaller cylinder means there is an increase in force overall.

failing this, willwood four pots if u can afford it mate

[dav325i]

was just wondering really if you could have fitted calipers of a new car say a e46 car just wondered if this could be a cheaper option as oppsed to aftermarket ones.could probably pick up calipers of a newr car pretty cheap from the brakers but if they were a nightmare to fit and need parts fabricated id be better going the willwood way
had grooved disks and ferodo pads on my last car and they did make a bit of differance over standard but not a great deal just help with fading never really improved the force so to speak

[Dan318-is]

ian332isport has porsche brakes on his, fuckign awesome but think the conversion cost the best part of a grand

not sure about brakes of a new car though mate

[dav325i]

no probs mate.hopefully someone might have some info on newer bmws
mmmmm porshe brakes they sound lovely dont think i could justify them as they would cost as much as the car

[dav325i]

so i take it no one as ever fitted brakes from another model to a 3 series then

[Brenner5]

the cheapest easiest way to go is fluid, something like ATE superblue fluid or something

ferrodo or mintex pads tend to be the best, also ATE or zimmermin slotted discs are the best. neebry buy drilled as they crack to easily.

thirdly, remember if you uprate ur master cylinder to get a smaller one nott a bigger one; most peopel thing a bigger cylinder means more effort overall, this is not the case; a smaller cylinder means there is an increase in force overall.

failing this, willwood four pots if u can afford it mate

smaller master cylinder?

which car does that come off?

[Dan318-is]

not sure what bmw model exatly

but it is a common myth; people go to uprate their master cylinders an put on bigger ones, you actualy need one with a smaller diameter rather than a larger one; as a larger cylinder would mean your pushing the same amount of fluid but with a piston that has a larger surface area, hence there is less braking effort overall by the time the pads are moved.

perhaps an e36 one can be addapted?

or jsut an uprated ATE one?

not to sure try searching ECP catalogue or realoem.com

[kdw215b]

You can you an adapter that sits behind the disc (e36/e46) this then puts it at the correct offset to use e36/46 brakes. It is also possible to fit the 4pot brembos from a 8 series as well. You also need to run 40mm offset wheels.

[Brianmoooore]

No playing around with master cylinders or servos will give you better brakes - all you will change is the amount of pedal pressure required.
Brakes are all about heat genaration by friction and dissapation.
You can get some improvement by using pads and fluid that will still work at a higher temperature, since a hotter disc will dissapate heat at a greater rate, but bigger discs give more improvement.
Can't remember any details but IIRC,( which I probably don't) there's something from the Volvo parts bin that will fit.

[ian332isport]

but it is a common myth; people go to uprate their master cylinders an put on bigger ones, you actualy need one with a smaller diameter rather than a larger one; as a larger cylinder would mean your pushing the same amount of fluid but with a piston that has a larger surface area, hence there is less braking effort overall by the time the pads are moved.

Not sure if I'm reading that right or not, but a larger diameter master cylinder WILL give a firmer pedal which requires a bit more effort to give the same amount of braking (but less travel). A smaller diameter master cylinder will give the pedal more travel, but you won't have to press so hard (just further) to get the same amount of braking.

Most standard E30's have a split bore master cylinder (22.2mm for the front brakes, and 17.4mm for the rear). You can use the E30 M3 cylinder that has a single bore of 23.8mm, or the E32 750i cylinder with a single 25.4mm bore.

Ian.

[Simon13]

there are enough after market disc's,pads and fluids for your needs mate!

i have a sport, of which i changed the front pads, disks and fluid. Made a mega difference. U don't need bigger brakes, mine did 14 laps of the nurburgring with no fade or problems.

new standard BMW brakes are pretty good unless u drive hard everywhere, but even then they need some stick to fade

[dav325i]

You can you an adapter that sits behind the disc (e36/e46) this then puts it at the correct offset to use e36/46 brakes. It is also possible to fit the 4pot brembos from a 8 series as well. You also need to run 40mm offset wheels.

any other info on this mate and who would suppley the brackets

[dav325i]

there are enough after market disc's,pads and fluids for your needs mate!

i have a sport, of which i changed the front pads, disks and fluid. Made a mega difference. U don't need bigger brakes, mine did 14 laps of the nurburgring with no fade or problems.

new standard BMW brakes are pretty good unless u drive hard everywhere, but even then they need some stick to fade

so what combination of pads and disks did you use?
just when ive had groved disks and pads before they didnt make a great difference.
dont know how you say i dont need bigger brakes.you can never have enough toping power.and opefuly i will get to do a few track days in it soon so the better brakes the better

[Simon13]

i don't know what matey is talking about e46/36 brakes. Never heard of it. their 5 stud and totally wrong offset for a start.

Alpina had a brake upgrade which used the same caliper but a bigger disk from a mercedes. Problem is, there are hardly any alpinas around to copy it. All it was, was a bracket made to mount the caliper out a bit further for the bigger disk.

Wilwood 4 pots, alot of aggro, u need big wheels 16 or 17's spacers and longer wheel bolts.

Me i have superblue brake fluid OR use castrol SRF.

Mintex M1155 competition pads
ATE power disks grooved

this is a bit noisey but she brakes when u need it.

power disks are the start, then just find some pads u like. People use these disks with ferrodo,mintex,pagid all with good results and not one munching the other.

We have been down this road before!

[M5pilot]

Got a demostration of Ferrodo pads from Karan last night - simply awesome.

I think he uses some type of racing flui and dont know what discs. But the best stopping E30 ive come accross so far (other than Ian's 332i.....thats insane!).

[dav325i]

cheers guys for the replys think im gonna go for these ate power disks and some decent pads used ferrodo alot in the past and never had a problem with them so mite try these with them.
so can you just get these disks from ecp as my auld mans got a trade account with them so helps i can pass the bill to him

this idea with the brackets from the alpina sounds good as i know folk who used the same idea with there rs turbo brakes.they used a caliper bracket that spaced the caliper further and your able to used the bigger disks from a cosworth.i know there totally different cars but same idea in principal.you coul get these brackets properly machined for Ԛ£40 so maybe worth looking in to if they helped alpina cant be that bad

sorry if you have all been down this road before i did try search for info on brakes but couldnt really find much info
thanks again

[Brianmoooore]

No one else heard of using Volvo discs then?
I know the stud pattern is correct, because I use an ex Volvo spacesaver spare wheel on my wife's dual fueled touring.

[ian332isport]

No one else heard of using Volvo discs then?
I know the stud pattern is correct, because I use an ex Volvo spacesaver spare wheel on my wife's dual fueled touring.

Not sure about the Volvo discs, but I believe the 280mm vented discs from a VW Corrado will fit. You may possibly have to open the centre bore out slightly though.

Ian.

[Simon13]

Got a demostration of Ferrodo pads from Karan last night - simply awesome.

I think he uses some type of racing flui and dont know what discs. But the best stopping E30 ive come accross so far (other than Ian's 332i.....thats insane!).

good old ate power disks, and castrol SRF DOT 5.1 fluid Ԛ£40 a litre

[Simon13]

Me and demlotcrew looked into getting some brackets made, but finding an Alpina with them was the problem. As they were an option on C2 2.7's (only 100 came into this country) and were standard on B6 3.5's of which there are probably under 10 over here! So not very common.

Plus with the 280mm disks u then need 16 inch wheels as 15's won't go on.

We were supposed to get some brackets off Mr.Pacerpete so my uncle could re produce some.

Thats how far we got!

If i remember correctly the corrado disks need a bit taken off the hub to get the correct offset but don't quote me. And i think these disks cost a bomb too

[chu346]

If i remember correctly the corrado disks need a bit taken off the hub to get the correct offset but don't quote me. And i think these disks cost a bomb too

So you don't wanna try it and cock it it up then

[jmc330i]

Plus with the 280mm disks u then need 16 inch wheels as 15's won't go on.

Is that just with the BMW 15s? Cause the Corrado had 15s as standard.

Eurocarparts has the Corrado disc (ATE) at about Ԛ£30, although it does quote the same part number for the G60 and VR6 which are different.
Both are 280mm but the G60 is 4stud, the VR6 is 5stud.

[Simon13]

well spoke to demlotcrew to jog his mind and neither of us can quite remember. He mentioned spacers too.

I'm not a fan of them after seeing a car with spacers and a wilwood 4 pot brakes have a wheel fall off in front of me

i don't think it's the disc size its the fact the caliper is moved out to fit on it as to why 16's are needed. This is for E30's of course!

Benefit from this is that the whole pad is used on the disc, where as with the normal (260mm?) disc u get small lips on the pads when worn. Plus the bigger disc gets rid of more heat than the standard size.

Whether the benefits of doing this out weigh the time and effort and cost for the discs is worth it, remains to be seen!

[dav325i]

cheers agaon for the replys guys
i obvously dont know how well they would work on the e30 of f course but i do know going up a size of disk on the turbos makes a great difference.
i didnt think myself that it would make a different till i went in a car with them and saw the difference for myself.much much better than my grooved disks at the time.the brackets were between Ԛ£30 and Ԛ£40.but as you have said its getting a car that has the brackets to test from and finding out what disks will fix.
ive also just found out that my mate knows someone who work in ECP i wonder if he could check all the disks against each other

[dsio]

If nothing else, having Porsche on your brakes makes it look a hell of alot cooler. Alot of shops around here do them relatively cheaply, with or without special discs.

Porsche 4 spot calipers with braided lines and larger discs.

[lentec]

I used jaguar 4 pots and vw g60 disks!





http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suemanley1/front%20brakes.htm

I needed 27mm spacers tho

[dav325i]

dsio they brakes looks excellent mate
probably think there out my price range tho any chance of a rough price anyway
lentec thanks mate.would be something along those lines that id like to do.maybe not with 27mm spacers tho .do they make a big difference to the braking mate

[dsio]

Ive been quoted two prices. I can get Porsche 924 Carrera GT brakes front and rear for $800 Australian installed, or I can get the 4 pot Porsche GT3 brakes and disc, which require much bigger wheels than my little 14" bottlecaps for $1200 Australian.

That includes changing the rears from drums to discs, and new brake lines, and any fabrication or modification required. Even though my 318i is the lightest of the E30s by a considerable margin, my front brakes have bad corrosion on the discs, and the rear drums are, well, drums. Stopping could be alot sharper.

Alternatively, theres the DIY job. I dont know about England, but we have so many GT3s being written off every year that parts are relatively cheap. Every Targa Tasmania, at least 12 GT3s end up arse first (the usual 911 crash method) into a tree, ditch, or wall.

Before the brakes though, I'm buying some of those nice Porsche 924/944 black deep dish "Cookie Cutter" wheels. Always had a thing for them!

[Julian_Jules]

ahh yes.....the quest for improved e30 brakes. We on the other end of the tropics are also doing the same!

To date, I have changed the disc to ATEs, installed braided lines and Fast Roads Pagid but am not satisfied with the EFFORT it takes to activate them....so the next mod is a swap of the servo/mc to a unit from a E38.

Let's see if I can lock my brakes ( intentionally ) cos I certainly cannot with the above settings. Will keep you posted.

One of my mate on a E21 has done a disc/caliper conversion to a VOLVO 240 4 piston set up......works very well, he reckons. ( the volve discs are 263mm so should fit our standard 260mm ) Anyone game here?

[Simon13]

theres good discs and pads out there in standard sizes. I can get my brakes to lock at 90mph if i just stamp on them

[ian332isport]

I can get my brakes to lock at 90mph if i just stamp on them

Simon,

I'm sorry, but that's the worst possible way to define 'good brakes'.

Once the brakes have locked, they are not actually doing any braking at all. All you have is the tyre sliding in an uncontrolled skid.

Optimum braking happens marginally before the brakes lock. This is the point where they are working their hardest. The problem with this, is that it's also the point where they are generating the most heat.

I remember doing a track day (Castle Coombe) when I first got my Sport (way back in December 96). Everything was great, and the brakes seemed fine and did not fade on me. A year or two later, I returned to the same track sporting my shiny new 2.7. After a couple of laps, the brakes were starting to fade quite badly, and it got to the point where I had to come off the circuit before I crashed it. For the record, this was running standard discs and Pagid 'fast road' pads.

Now I appreciate that a 2.7 is not a quantum leap in the power stakes over a standard 2.5, but it was certainly enough to cook the standard setup in a very short time. It's surprising how much quicker the corners appear with a bit of extra power. BMW did not build that much extra capacity into the standard setup, so improved brakes should be high up on the modification list.

After a few 'moments' at Coombe, I got a 285mm brake kit from Hi-Spec. This gave a very noticable improvement in braking, even using the standard calipers. Unfortunately the discs were of low quality and warped in about 3 months of road use (as did the replacements). I then fitted a similar kit but using 2 piece 300mm discs. Again, a noticable improvement in braking (still standard calipers), but also still had problems with the discs warping in a very short time.

It was my experience with these larger discs (and their short life) that prompted me to go for the Mov'it kit I have now. I was also planning the M3 engine conversion, so used that as a bit of extra justification

It's hard to actually explain to someone how much difference you get from larger discs/calipers without a demonstration. It's one of those things that's hard to put into words, but the difference is really huge.

Sorry, got a bit Jackonory there

Ian.

[dav325i]

thanks again guys for al the replys.lots of food for thought
looks like if i want "really good" brakes ill have to bite the bullet and buy bigger disks and calipers.
in the meantime ill probably go for the ate disks and some decent pads and ill just try not to drive the car to much in anger lol which can be hard
ian ill be guesing that your brake setup will be a tad more expensive than our friend is qouting from down under?i was think more like 1-1.5k probably

[ian332isport]

ian ill be guesing that your brake setup will be a tad more expensive than our friend is qouting from down under?i was think more like 1-1.5k probably

It was nearer 1.7K, but you also have to factor in a new set of rims to fit over them

Ian.