jump start from fork lift truck !!!

Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:51 pm

I bought a non starting 325 from a friend nearly a year ago....

So far I have just managed to get it into my garage and ask a few questions....

Turns out that the last time the car ran, was after it was jump started by my friend at work with a fork lift truck. Now I don't know what voltage it uses but if its a mega volt truck what could potentially be fried?

It also has a toad ai600 alarm fitted. I won't have time until next week before I can get my hands dirty, so in the meantime I'm trying to do a bit of homework.

I'll be going through previous threads with regards to immobilisers etc, but on my searches I've yet to find any mention of another high voltage jump start.

Any pointers gratefully appreciated.

Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:43 pm

Everything's protected by fuse, in theory. The delicate Motronic ECU could be zapped, however.

Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:12 pm

It's an odd ecu too. When I bought it my friend gave me a carrier bag with two ecu's in it.

One was the standard looking m20b25 motronic ecu like you see in all the 'how do I chip my ecu' threads and the other was about half the size, but thats the one that actually fits the wiring connector on the car.

I've yet to test the main inputs/outputs etc from the ecu. All I know so far is that he changed the cps for a new one and it has no spark. Haven't checked for fuel, voltage to pump/coil etc

Thanks for the pointer, any idea if there are any fuses in particular that might have got zapped, apart from the main fuse box, all of those were checked and had continuity.

Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:13 pm

If it did actually run after the forklift jump start incident then I think you'll be OK. Just need to check for whatever meant it needed a jumpstart in the first place.

Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:26 pm

It's been parked up for nearly a year now. He told me he drove it home then after that it's never started again. It's had a new battery and jump/tow starting it doesn't work either. I know there's no spark. So thats my first port of call I think.

As soon as I can get it started I'll check for electrical drains and proper charging, hopefully it'll be something simple...

Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:26 am

heard of a similar prob with a 325i, it turned out the loom from the c101 socket had fried wires.. and i think one of these wires ran in to the boot located battery.... even after the loom was repaired, if the car was jump started from under the bonnet, the wires would fry again so once sorted again, the underbonnet jumping point/ battery +ve location was covered up and nver used

Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:49 am

Thanks for that, I'll put that at the top of the list

Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:55 am

99% of fork trucks are 12 V even rough terrain
or did he use a Electric Reach truck ? those things have about 11 batteries in them ?

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:14 am

The ECU that is half the size of the other is probably the ABS ECU and this lives behind the glove box on a RHD car. The engine ECU is located to the right of the steering coloum behind the panel above the foot pedals.

Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:45 am

Hehe, good point. It won't run with just an ABS ECU

More seriously, why not stick a couple of photos up of the ECU and area so we can be sure its all there and wired up properly?

Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:26 pm

Ha ha I just had a chuckle at this. The car is left hand drive and the box he's pulled out is the one under the steering wheel (so glove box side on rhd) so it must be the abs ecu.

On the plus side I've got a spare ecu, now I just need to get some photo's and I think I'll quickly swap the ecu's tonight to see if that gets it running.

Now that it's been mentioned I remember pulling the ecu out of my other RHD car and testing the sensors at the ecu! The thought that I was looking at the wrong side on this car never crossed my mind!! Duh moment over, now time to keep my fingers crossed.

Will post up plenty of pics tonight...

Thanks for the help so far

Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:02 am

This house renovation is really taking its toll....

I've only just had time this evening to go out and do a couple of checks. By which time I was frozen and thought sod it.

What I've found out using a bulb and some wire is that there's no voltage at the coil with the ignition on, and also no voltage at fuse 11 while trying to start it. I don't know how to check the main engine (white?) relay so I swapped it around with its neighbours (assuming) that they are the same. Still no change.

While I was doing this I also noticed that the alarm siren was 'crackling' kind of like static or white noise.

I'm not going to have time to check and photo it til next monday so I'll be doing some more searching and reading in the meantime. Any ideas gladly welcomed...

Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:29 am

You sure the crackling isn't the hummm from the idle control valve?

Left hooker will have the abs/engine ecu's opposite to RHD cars

Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:45 am

Hi Simon13,

another fellow late nighter!!

I'm sure its not the icv, I stuck my head next to the siren and I could hear it. It actually scared the crap out of me when I first heard it as it was so strange.

I've not had a chance to pull the ecu out (going to be around the glove box on this car), won't have time til next monday now

I have been searching and reading and searching and reading and now its nearly 3am so I should quit while I'm (hopefully) ahead. I've found out that the green wire from the ignition switch is a major culprit, sends live to the ecu and the coil. So if I'm lucky it might just be something along that wire. Possibly the alarms immobiliser, or the ecu's dead because there's no fuel either.

I'll try to do some more reading before hand and then post up after I've had a chance to check the car again.

Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:49 am

I've just re-read what you posted.

Are you sure it's opposite on lhd?

I think it's mostly all in the same place except that where the ecu is on a RHD car, there is a steering column and on a LHD car there is a glove box.

I'l know for sure in a few days, and I'll post up

Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:14 am

Supafly wrote:What I've found out using a bulb and some wire is that there's no voltage at the coil with the ignition on,

This means that the problem is unlikely to be with the engine or its loom (although i can't guarantee this is the car's ONLY fault, of course!)
Connect your bulb between earth and the smaller terminal on the phantom battery + terminal on the RH side of the engine bulkhead.
If it lights, connect a wire (preferably with a 15A fuse included) between the large phantom terminal and the + connection of the ignition coil (with the original wire still connected).
Try to start the car.

Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:37 pm

I've just had time to get started on this again now.

What I've found is that there is power at the phantom battery.

I connected a wire from there to the + on the coil (with original wiring still attached) tried starting it and still no spark. Also if the wire was left connected to the phantom terminal and ignition key switched off, the lights would stay illuminated on the dash.

I also swapped the ecu and tried starting it again, still no spark then I tried with the coil directly connected to live again.

I'm going to go out and take some photo's and get them posted up in a bit to see if that might help. I noticed two wiring connectors on the side of the ecu which had nothing connected... will get photo's of these up too.

Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:28 pm

Brianmoooore wrote:Connect your bulb between earth and the smaller terminal on the phantom battery + terminal on the RH side of the engine bulkhead.

The two sockets near the ECU are not used.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:17 am

ooops

missed that whilst I was reading, crossing my fingers and hoping it would be an easy fix.

There is no power at the smaller terminals (B and C in the picture, are these the ones you're referring to?), but 12v at A.

I also did a bit of searching and reading, which lead me to test the green wire under the steering column (LHD) which showed 12v when the ignition was on.

When the ignitions on there's also only 0.63v at pin 27 of the ecu socket.

.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:52 am

looking at your top pic I'm sure c should have a live feed. check the other end of the battery lead in the boot to make sure that the small cable is still attached at that end. where are you located? just if you were local to me id be willing to lend a hand

Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:23 am

'C' is not showing any live

As for the battery in the boot, there is a red wire, but it definately doesn't look oem, but I've made sure its connected. I'll check to see if there are any more wires around there..

Thank you for your offer to lend a hand. I'm in birmingham, land of the so called dodgy 'Bee-em', although there are some good guys here too ;). I think denny (near glasgow?) may be slightly un-local

Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:55 am

Connect a A to C temporarily, and try to start the car.
Your second pic. is an excellant shot of the ABS protection relay, and the immobiliser socket that I often refer to, complete with standard shorting plug!

Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:22 am

I connected A to C and tried to start the car but it still wouldn't start.

I could hear a faint buzzing when I turned the ignition on which I first thought was the fuel pump, but it turns out to be the ecu buzzing, is this normal when this bypass is done?

Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:23 am

If you need any more pics, let me know. I've well and truly got the hang of it now

Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:43 am

im not to much help but id maybe be getting someone to check the alarm/immobilser on the car and make sure its not that what is stoping it from starting.then take it from there.
sorry if you have already done this just worth a thought as i know toad.even tho they are a good alarm can be tempremental and maybe its built in battery is dead and causing probs?
good luck mate and hope you get sorted soon will probably be something stupid

Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:58 am

Thanks for the pointer dav325i, I have thought about this, but I don't know of anyone local who would come and check, and more importantly £'s are very very limited.

As I'm fairly handy with spanners etc, I thought a logical process of elimination would highlight what the fault/cause is.

Then I can take it from there, plus I'm hoping to be able to get it started and then drive it to a toad specialist and hopefully that will be cheaper...??

Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:59 pm

is there no mobile auto sparks you know thats recomended in your area?i know pounds are limited but i had a problem years ago with an alarm and caused nothing but hassles.sometimes car wouldnt start sometimes it would and it would always fail to start at the worst time when you needed the car

lol.i ended up getting a guy to come and disconect alarm the alarm.took him 5mins and cost me 25quid,and was the best 25 quid i ever spent on the car

trouble is making sure you get someone that knows what there doing or its more wasted money

Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:07 pm

I could probably disconnect the alarm myself, I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron (help out in a mates phone shop fixing mobiles sometimes).

From what I understand all I'd need to do is trace back all the wires and re-connect anything that's been spliced into or disconnected etc

Thing is that I would like to keep the alarm and remote central locking if poss... looks like I might have to strip it out and then re-fit it once I find out whats wrong, but I would have thought that testing everything would be easier while it's all attached to the car.

£25 is peanuts to be rid of a problem like this (and I wish it is as easy for me), but as you say, it's important to get someone who knows their stuff.

I also prefer doing things myself so I have the satisfaction of learning, and knowing for sure that it's done right.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:22 pm

I've been back to the car and taken some more pics.

I noticed that there is an eye connector just sitting there...

I followed the wires which are taped up back and could see four wires, two are black and the other two are red with an orange stripe and red with a black stripe.

I can't see any missing bolts where this could have been connected, there is an earth wire connected almost directly above, near the abs relay but this is still securely mounted.

I have also noticed a box with "piranha" written on it, this was tucked away to the side of the steering column and has wires which go through to the centre of the dash. The case on this is also loose, it looks as though there arent any screws holding it together.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:45 pm

If there's no power on 'C', you've blown the fusible link in the boot, in line with the smaller wire from the battery +.
You really need to strip all this/these alarms out, and start again from fresh, connecting them properly.
The wiring in an E30 is really quite simple, and it should be easy to get the engine to run!
When you've sorted the fusible link, check (with a bulb) for power on the + terminal of the ignition coil with the ignition on, and for the fuel pump running (or connect the bulb to its plug), when the engine is cranked.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:06 pm

I checked the boot and the fuse is blown, I've temporarily fixed it but would like to replace with the same again if possible. Are these still available?

Now I am getting power to the coil when the ignition is on and also to fuse 11 when cranking, but still no start.

I just realised what you mean by plug Brian (at least I think i do) at the actual pump itself.... going to nip out and check again at the pump...

Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:29 pm

Of course they're still available - this is BMW!
The problem is we do not know to what and to where any immobiliser is connected. The usual things are a selection of ignition circuit, fuel pump circuit, and starter motor circuit.
Ignition circuit is now sorted, I assume the engine cranks, so that just leaves the fuel pump circuit.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:49 pm

"...that just leaves the fuel pump circuit."

Which I have just checked and if I tested the right plug (two pin with a brown and green wire) then that's what is being 'cut'.

Starter is fine as it spins over nicely.

I'm assuming ignition is ok as there's voltage at the coil and fuse 11 when cranking, but I don't know about spark, I'm on my own and can't see over from the drivers side to the rocker cover where I had a spark plug with no1 lead connected. I won't be able to test this til tomorrow evening.

Is it as easy as supplying 12v to the fuel pump then trying again to start it? what about polarity (is the brown earth?

Then I can begin the process of finding the immobiliser and either bypassing it or repair it somehow.

Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:52 pm

One question answered, Green and violet is the positive for the fuel pump, brown is the earth.

That is, if I read the wiring diagram properly...

Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:21 pm

If there's definitely voltage at fuse 11 when cranking, the engine ECU is seeing crank sensor pulses, and is almost certainly producing sparks.
The green/purple wire leaving the outer side of fuse 11 is the same one that connects to the fuel pump. The only joint in it is (should) be the plug and socket on the RH side of the rear seat pan.
The wire goes down through the duct under the fusebox, into the area behind the glovebox, across to the LH side, then down and along the LH sill, before crossing the rear seat pan to the above mentioned plug and socket.