E30 Zone

Has anyone fitted one of these, if so, what's your thoughts. Worth the money or engine bling?

Cheers, H.

Expensive way to loose power and cause engine wear.

Brianmoooore wrote:Expensive way to loose power and cause engine wear.

That will do, cheers mate.

Had one, mounting bracket is plastic. Engineheat causes it to go brittle. It'llanap and K&N will do feck all to help you unless you've kept the receipt for 2 and a half year, not even sell you a new one. I replaced it with a pipercross induction kit. Much better. Machined aluminium, one piece including mounting bracket. Didmake a difference.

blatantarrogance wrote: Didmake a difference.

To the noise maybe! If your engine produces less than 200 bhp, then any power gains are imaginary. Certainly any that can be detected without a dyno.

Brianmoooore wrote:Expensive way to loose power and cause engine wear.

Havent we had this discussion before? Didnt sal post his findings?? I for one have an old PBMW mag where they tested these types of filters and the cone filters DID make positive gains in both bhp and torque.

Obviously in standing traffic it will probably loose power but since when is that even going to be a factor? Once your driving fast the airflow into the engine bay will negate any warm air you would have otherwise be sucking in.
And this has been proved by Sal.

So with regards to your comments are you going to back them up?

Q Sal....

not unless u got a cold air intake

I think Sal was fighting the corner of BMC and ITG, both have major differences over the K&N design.

spence_star wrote:not unless u got a cold air intake

Not unless what?? Unless you dont have a cold air feed your going to loose power?

IMHO thats rubbish. Show me some prrof...afterall thats the best way to prove people worng....with FACTS.

Jimbob wrote:I think Sal was fighting the corner of BMC and ITG, both have major differences over the K&N design.

But didnt he do a test on an open air filter?

he also did test's on under bonnet temps aswell, and there was not really a big difference..

i would just buy a K&N panel filter and retain the standard airbox dude

i bought a cone filter for mine (325i) despite already having the above setup and it did lose bottom end grunt with no noticeable gains at the top. And don't be tempted to remove the little trumpet inside the standard airbox as that will lose you low end grunt too

While on the subject of air boxes, i have a k&n panel filter fitted as well. In my wisdom i decided to also drill holes in the the airbox along the bottom and the sides. Would this make any difference.........benefitial or not?

BMW spent millions of marks developing that induction set up on an E30. My own touring came with a price tag of around £23,000 pounds in 1988. For that amount, you could buy a house at the time.
If the E30 needed a better air filter, then they would have fitted one.
Designed and built by engineers, not bean counters like most marques.
Something I remember said by a BMW engineer to one of his Rover counterparts at the time BMW bought Rover: "At BMW, we look at a part, and think how we can make it better. At Rover, you look at a part, and think how you can make it cheaper"

Ha ha...................fair point!

E30BeemerLad wrote:i would just buy a K&N panel filter and retain the standard airbox dude

Exactly what I did....took the big cotton green one out and just used a decent panel filter...much better imho..

Pal

I put a K&N induction kit into my last car and i didnt think it would make any difference. At first i just fitted the cone filter and drove it for a while and i didnt notice a thing, seriously it felt like i lost response. I then fitted the cold air intake pipe that came with it and faced one end of the tube to the filter and the other end facing the grills of the car where the cold air would come in when you drive.

And believe me there was a major difference the repsonse was so much better. i was wheel spinning at gear change from first to 2nd with 17s, and i could only do that before on the standard wheels it came with.

Personally induction kits push out more power when you have actually completed Stage 1, which is full exhaust system, induction kit and chip.

Brianmoooore wrote:BMW spent millions of marks developing that induction set up on an E30. My own touring came with a price tag of around £23,000 pounds in 1988. For that amount, you could buy a house at the time.
If the E30 needed a better air filter, then they would have fitted one.
Designed and built by engineers, not bean counters like most marques.
Something I remember said by a BMW engineer to one of his Rover counterparts at the time BMW bought Rover: "At BMW, we look at a part, and think how we can make it better. At Rover, you look at a part, and think how you can make it cheaper"

Fuuny that my sisters X used to work for Rover post development, his job was to make things cheaper!

When my K & N broke, I never even noticed it had fallen off. It was wedged in the bottom of the engine bay. Once I had attached the Pipercross, I could feel a tangeble (sp) improvement in response, psychological or otherwise.

I have read, through links on threads here, enough well written and researched arguements for both sides. I remember one yank going on about air pressure at certain heights above sea level etc etc.

I think the best point made here is when it's used in conjunction with other parts.

Also, I'm lead to believe that drag racers use cone filters, also seen them on Tractor pulling. If these parts were substandard, I wonder why they're in use. Also if the 1980's design induction is so superior to later designs etc, why are they not using the coveted e30 airbox?

The e30 is a reflection of a design brief to meet 1980's requirements, to meet 1980's standards and what 1980's customers wanted. While BMW did spend a lot of money on development and design of it's components, I'm damned sure they would have worked to a budget, not a bottomless pit of cash, to achieve automotive design zen.

Personal preference I think.

This one could be another can of worms getting ready to be opened

Hahaha, come on now people, lets all just agree to disagree!!!

blatantarrogance wrote:Hahaha, come on now people, lets all just agree to disagree!!!

To true...

If having a air filter makes you feel good, because of the lovely noise they make, then cool, if it makes you think that your car go's faster then cool to that too....as already stated by blatantarrogance, it's personal prefrence...do as you please, at least you'll go to sleep easier at night

Brianmoooore wrote:BMW spent millions of marks developing that induction set up on an E30. My own touring came with a price tag of around £23,000 pounds in 1988. For that amount, you could buy a house at the time.
If the E30 needed a better air filter, then they would have fitted one.
Designed and built by engineers, not bean counters like most marques.
Something I remember said by a BMW engineer to one of his Rover counterparts at the time BMW bought Rover: "At BMW, we look at a part, and think how we can make it better. At Rover, you look at a part, and think how you can make it cheaper"

Anyone who believes that BMW don't do things for cost purposes is being a bit naive IMO and anyone who thinks that BMW things can not be improved upon is also naive and its not to say that there are better solutions available left right and centre though. i work in engineering and design offices and engineers rarely get the last say unless its a safety issue or major reliability issue etc

if you don't believe me then so why the F*** did they give us 12V and 1 cam with that POS aluminium thing with holes in they call a head......lol

BMW are a business to make money first and foremost.

reggid wrote:

Brianmoooore wrote:BMW spent millions of marks developing that induction set up on an E30. My own touring came with a price tag of around £23,000 pounds in 1988. For that amount, you could buy a house at the time.
If the E30 needed a better air filter, then they would have fitted one.
Designed and built by engineers, not bean counters like most marques.
Something I remember said by a BMW engineer to one of his Rover counterparts at the time BMW bought Rover: "At BMW, we look at a part, and think how we can make it better. At Rover, you look at a part, and think how you can make it cheaper"

Anyone who believes that BMW don't do things for cost purposes is being a bit naive IMO and anyone who thinks that BMW things can not be improved upon is also naive and its not to say that there are better solutions available left right and centre though. i work in engineering and design offices and engineers rarely get the last say unless its a safety issue or major reliability issue etc

if you don't believe me then so why the F*** did they give us 12V and 1 cam with that POS aluminium thing with holes in they call a head......lol

BMW are a business to make money first and foremost.

AGREED.

The e30 is a reflection of a design brief to meet 1980's requirements, to meet 1980's standards and what 1980's customers wanted. While BMW did spend a lot of money on development and design of it's components, I'm damned sure they would have worked to a budget, not a bottomless pit of cash, to achieve automotive design zen.

Personal preference I think.[/quote]

Makes sense.

BMW have to consider fuel economy, mass production costs, ease of build, the ability to use parts between their platforms (will it fit other models etc), etc etc.
Induction kit providers have to think of these things, but only when it comes to how much to charge for their item, and whether thats competitive against their, err competitors.
I don't think that BMW would have put the highest performance induction setup on a car that would have been sold to an executive/businessman with a need for refinement and some economy, or for smooth power delivery whilst remaining quiet. In fact, I think they'd have been making a large error if they had.

Talking to Sal about induction kits, he said that the K&N filter was NOT as good as the standard airbox. I trust his judgement, and I kind of intend to remove my K&N 57i, but to be honest, I like the plane-like whine it adds when I'm belting it in 4th and 5th which was definitely not as pronounced before fitting it.

To give you some more information, in case it helps you decide; the bracket with which it attaches (on the 57i kit) is now metal (if it were ever plastic it isn't now) and doesn't seem massively strong, but sufficiently so. The cold air feed tube they give you isn't very substantial, but in theory should give you some power gain if used as they tell you to. I say theoretically, because Sal got some temp probes out and measured the engine temperatures of the E30 when driving, and they matched the outside air temp. ie, and this is fundamental to thoughts on cold air feeds ; The E30 is very very good at allowing cold air to enter the engine bay when driving. Probably because its as aero-dynamic as the average fridge/freezer, and has lots of vents which allow the air to enter the engine bay. Cold air feeds should not really help.

For the £100 I paid, and knowing what I know now, and following on talking to Sal about it, I wouldnt have bought the 57i, but believed the 9bhp improvement on their site and decided to go for it. I'd (I think this classes me as a sad muppet but hey) always wanted a 57i, and my previous crappy cars has never had a 57i made for them so I think I got sucked in by the marketing.

Stick with the standard, unless you want a fractional increase in noise at 90+mph, and don't mind people mocking you for "wasting your money" at most E30 meets ;) £100 is a strut brace, or some bushes, or 1/3rd of a suspension kit ; all of which add noticeable improvements from what I hear...

Hope this helps, its all my own opinions, and the post asked for opinions on the K&Ns so here you go...

PS - When I say "engine temperatures" - I really mean "under-bonnet temperatures" ie the air around the filter...

Not a bottomless pit, maybe, but a much deeper one than most manufactuers, with the bean counters kept firmly in their place.

That's true - The typical zoner is sadly (for us!) very different to their (E30s non M3) intended market in the time they were produced.
If you buy an M5/M6 however, BMW focus was/is firmly on performance, and hence there is little or no better option for many of their parts, period. Hence why Sal's M5 (360 bhp stock as I recall) has not been modified (I hope I'm right in saying this! Please correct of wrong Sal).

JaMMi wrote:That's true - The typical zoner is sadly (for us!) very different to their (E30s non M3) intended market in the time they were produced.
If you buy an M5/M6 however, BMW focus was/is firmly on performance, and hence there is little or no better option for many of their parts, period. Hence why Sal's M5 (360 bhp stock as I recall) has not been modified (I hope I'm right in saying this! Please correct of wrong Sal).

Sorry but your wrong on describing the M5 sal has. No E34 M5 had 360bhp. They came in 3.6 @ 315bhp quoted, and 3.8 @340bhp. It is however widely regarded that the 3.8 on the whole didnt quite meet the quoted output, where as the 3.6 was more "on the money" in terms of claims.

?? i thought they were 360bhp?

I don't see why a generic foam cone would give better results than a custom designed airbox....but if you like the noise go for it.

Geoff wrote:

JaMMi wrote:That's true - The typical zoner is sadly (for us!) very different to their (E30s non M3) intended market in the time they were produced.
If you buy an M5/M6 however, BMW focus was/is firmly on performance, and hence there is little or no better option for many of their parts, period. Hence why Sal's M5 (360 bhp stock as I recall) has not been modified (I hope I'm right in saying this! Please correct of wrong Sal).

Sorry but your wrong on describing the M5 sal has. No E34 M5 had 360bhp. They came in 3.6 @ 315bhp quoted, and 3.8 @340bhp. It is however widely regarded that the 3.8 on the whole didnt quite meet the quoted output, where as the 3.6 was more "on the money" in terms of claims.

Nice ;)

Stop talking about my M5's!

3.8's do make 340bhp, most don't because people don't bother to change the coil packs, check valve clearances and balance throttle bodies. Mine makes more than 340 bhp

Anyway, open air induction kits - this has been covered so many times it's unreal.

In traffic and slow moving conditions the factory airbox is only matched by the BMC carbon airbox for keeping air intake temps as low as possible.

Once moving however even an open type cone filter gets the same intake temp as a sealed system.

BUT, with the K&N - it's mounted at the air flow meter. The ITG is placed just behind the head light. Makes a big big difference!

Then we have the issue of the internal trumpet which the 57i kit loses and the ITG retains. For those of you who think this is irrelevant, take off your factory air box trumpet and go for a drive.

BMW did quite a decent job BUT they were governed by pass by noise regulations and what ever else the german car manufacturing laws say.

Now for you people who think you cannot beat what BMW did - if they did such a good on the airbox why did they suddenly forget about the rear suspension and as mentioned by another poster the single cam and crappy iron cast manifold??

And if they are so good why is it that a Simota Carbon Airbox makes +10bhpon a Z3mCoupe?? An M car! I tell you why. Because the aftermarket does not care about pass by noise regulations. Let's not even get started on the E39 m5 manifolds, intake system and lack of brake cooling, cluthes and dodgy MAF's, crappy piston rings.....

A decent induction kit will make a difference on the open road. E30Pilot and myself raced each other on some desolate emtpy roads, both tourings, both putting out 170 brake on the dyno but one was then fitted with an ITG. It made enough difference that from a rolling start the car with induction kit pulled away. It only pulled away very slowly in every gear but it still pulled!

The ITG kits can be improved upon with a good heatshield but this will only really make a difference at low speeds or sitting in traffic.

Sal

Geoff wrote:

spence_star wrote:not unless u got a cold air intake

Not unless what?? Unless you dont have a cold air feed your going to loose power?

IMHO thats rubbish. Show me some prrof...afterall thats the best way to prove people worng....with FACTS.

So Sal does cold air intake make a difference or not? IYO?