E30 Zone

Hi guys, how would you rate general reliability for the pre '87 1.8L 316's with carbs, and the later 1.6L ones with fuel injection - with 100% stock engines?

I am of the understanding that most examples you would find these days -unmodified - would not be 'reliable' by any stretch of the imagination, I find this somewhat unsurprising as they are getting on a bit, but what is your opinion on this?

What issues are common to experience with these cars/engines, and what measures could be taken to prevent/lessen the risk of said issues occurring?

What kind of maintenance would need to be carried out to keep the motor happy and running at its best?

And how much would an E30 cost to repair if something goes wrong in comparison to a newer car?

I have been advised not to buy a 316(i) because they are 'base model' - 'slow' etcetera and to buy a 318i at the very least, and I am well aware of this, but this is specifically about the 316/316i.

Thanks in advance for any advice

~acme

Glad you signed up here now fella, you'll get much more accurate knowledge from here than over there (I'm Invader over there ).

acme15 wrote: And how much would an E30 cost to repair if something goes wrong in comparison to a newer car?

Depends what breaks/goes wrong.

FinalD wrote:Glad you signed up here now fella, you'll get much more accurate knowledge from here than over there (I'm Invader over there ).

I must seem like a persistant little bastard haha.

I wasn't expecting to bump into any of you guys over here

FinalD wrote:Depends what breaks/goes wrong.

Very true, but I don't know what is likely to break/go wrong

If they have had any half decent maintenance throughout the years, I would expect either model to be extremely reliable, as long as the 316's OE carb. has been replaced by a Weber.
Having said that, a 316i/318i is streets ahead on the 316 in sophistication, and given equal choices, I wouldn't consider the latter.
If you were to set off on a 3,000 mile tour around Europe (which I have, several times), the two spares to take are a fuel pump and a crank position sensor.

It's worth dumping these links here so you can have a quick glance off all three models, which could be considered 5 different cars:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/316

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/316i

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/318i

Grrrmachine wrote:It's worth dumping these links here so you can have a quick glance off all three models, which could be considered 5 different cars:

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/316

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/316i

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/index.php/318i

Thanks I knew a little about the different engines, but I didn't realise that the 316i originally had the M10 engine in it.

I suppose that explains the noticable insurance price difference between a 1986 316, 1987 316i and 1988 316i then

Brianmoooore wrote:If they have had any half decent maintenance throughout the years, I would expect either model to be extremely reliable, as long as the 316's OE carb. has been replaced by a Weber.
Having said that, a 316i/318i is streets ahead on the 316 in sophistication, and given equal choices, I wouldn't consider the latter.
If you were to set off on a 3,000 mile tour around Europe (which I have, several times), the two spares to take are a fuel pump and a crank position sensor.

That's the thing though, when buying a car it can be hard to determine how well it has been taken care of. Especially if it has had a few owners over the years.

I would be looking for a 316i really, insurance pricing is a major issue though, so it will depend entirely on what I can get insured for what price. Otherwise i'll have to put it on hold for a year or two.

What is your personal experience with things going wrong with your car?

The earlier M10 engine will take far higher levels of neglect than the later M40 316i engine.

The M10 is VERY strong. Old fashioned yes but strong.

If I was in the market for an entry level E30 I'd go with the Carb'd 316 rather than the M40 316i - but as has already been stated a Weber carb upgrade is a must.

Also bear in mind that the earlier 316 carb engine is 1.8L and the 316i is 1.6

Personally I wouldnt bother with either - the 6 cylinder M20 engine even in 2.0 form is in a different league to any 4 cylinder stuff. You will probably find the insurance cost difference between them is minimal.

Everyone on here bangs on about the 2.0 being as thirsty as a 2.5 and not really any faster than a 318i - that MAY be true but they drive completely differently to the 4 cylinder cars and the sound they make is worth any extra insurance premium.

IMO if insurance is the reason you're not looking at a 325i, then go for a 320i if your budget will stretch to it or a 316 if you just want a strong engine in the cheapest possible E30.

The 316i is slow and most of the cheap ones that are left have camshafts like toblerones and sound like a bag of stones in a cement mixer

I was originally looking at getting a carbed 316, but thinking about it I think I would be better off waiting a year and getting an E30 320i/E30 325i/E28 520i/E28 525i...

With no NCB the difference between the two is catastrophic at my age. With one years NCB the difference is a mere £100... So i'll probably pootle around in something like a VW Fox for a year and try not to hit anything

I'll chime in here.
I have owned a Webber carbbed E30, and have to sat , it was a very good engine, although mated to a slushbox.
I had it running for about 1/12 years before replacing it with a rebult M30.
But, on MPG, very very go, it cost me £42 to get from the Midlands to Portsmouth and back, and that was better than the 325 sport, 320i auto and 323i that was in the convoy.

Very little to go wrong with these engines as stated.

^ And when something does go wrong, it's usually easy to fix

M10's are just good little workhorses with a nice amount of low down torque. Great for cruising.

capnmchl wrote:^ And when something does go wrong, it's usually easy to fix

M10's are just good little workhorses with a nice amount of low down torque. Great for cruising.

Would it be easy for a machine engineer with a passion for working on vintage motorbikes, and his completely inexperienced son (that would be me) armed with nothing but a parts list, some diagrams, and ebay? haha

And that's good to know. I was almost entirely put off by people telling me that they were completely hopeless and un-reliable on a different forum, so I came here hoping for some better informed advice

If it will get me around town without cursing at it overheating or being too slow, and will happily sit at 80- 85MPH (*ahem* whoops, I mean 70MPH ) on the motorway, and can do that without breaking down and being an expensive to maintain nightmare, thats all I need. (at least for now.) I know what to expect in terms of performance. Not much. 0 - 60 in about 23 years

acme15 wrote:

capnmchl wrote:^ And when something does go wrong, it's usually easy to fix

M10's are just good little workhorses with a nice amount of low down torque. Great for cruising.

Would it be easy for a machine engineer with a passion for working on vintage motorbikes, and his completely inexperienced son (that would be me) armed with nothing but a parts list, some diagrams, and ebay? haha

And that's good to know. I was almost entirely put off by people telling me that they were completely hopeless and un-reliable on a different forum, so I came here hoping for some better informed advice

If it will get me around town without cursing at it overheating or being too slow, and will happily sit at 80- 85MPH (*ahem* whoops, I mean 70MPH ) on the motorway, and can do that without breaking down and being an expensive to maintain nightmare, thats all I need. (at least for now.) I know what to expect in terms of performance. Not much. 0 - 60 in about 23 years

Unreliable ??? Whoever told you that on another forum doesnt know what theyre talking about.

The M10 was used for years by BMW and is about as simple and reliable an engine as you can get.

Easy to work on, lots of space in the engine bay and it will do what you need it to do.

Its the M40 that has the poor reputation for camshaft wear meaning it will only rev to about 4k.

acme15 wrote:I was almost entirely put off by people telling me that they were completely hopeless and un-reliable on a different forum, so I came here hoping for some better informed advice

I've been driving E30s for 12 years now and they've never failed to get me to where I was going, unlike an E36 and E46 that I've also owned. The main problem today is most are tired scrap that are uneconomical to restore. Nearly all E30s will require some work but a well maintained one can be perfectly reliable daily transport.

A good M40 powered 316i/318i is a nice car. The M40 doesn't have the best reputation but nearly all its problems are caused by a lack of maintenance. They're a bit ordinary compared to the 6 cylinder cars but are a decent thing to smoke around in.

darkchild wrote:A good M40 powered 316i/318i is a nice car. The M40 doesn't have the best reputation but nearly all its problems are caused by a lack of maintenance.

Trouble is, the lack of maintenance on an M40 kills the engine in the form of excessively worn cam lobes as mentioned above. That's going to cost more than a few filters to fix.

acme15 wrote:

capnmchl wrote:^ And when something does go wrong, it's usually easy to fix

M10's are just good little workhorses with a nice amount of low down torque. Great for cruising.

Would it be easy for a machine engineer with a passion for working on vintage motorbikes, and his completely inexperienced son (that would be me) armed with nothing but a parts list, some diagrams, and ebay? haha

And that's good to know. I was almost entirely put off by people telling me that they were completely hopeless and un-reliable on a different forum, so I came here hoping for some better informed advice

If it will get me around town without cursing at it overheating or being too slow, and will happily sit at 80- 85MPH (*ahem* whoops, I mean 70MPH ) on the motorway, and can do that without breaking down and being an expensive to maintain nightmare, thats all I need. (at least for now.) I know what to expect in terms of performance. Not much. 0 - 60 in about 23 years

Apart from a completely shagged engine, there are only a few things that can go wrong. The crappy pierburg carb, which is easy to swap with the Weber replacement, a worn camshaft sprocket, which'll cost ~£40, and the chain tensioner, which you may as well do at the same time as the sprocket and costs another £40.

As said above, loads of room to work with, nice and simple to take apart. The Weber conversion is definitely worth doing. With the standard 3.91 diff, it should sit at 3k rpm at 70 and 3.5k rpm at 80, which is a nice cruising speed. And with a working thermostat, water pump, fan and radiator, it shouldn't overheat. Mine doesn't anyway.

Thanks guys

How much should I expect to pay for a 'decent' example of a 316 which would potentially be a reliable car after a quick service, a few tweaks, a carb swap (if it hasn't already been done) and a little rust work? I'm all up for that, but at this stage I'm sure you'll understand I'm not interested in stripping down the whole engine bay. In the future, maybe, but not to start off.

How long is a piece of string? Personally, I'd go for the M40 engine every time. Reliable it may be, but so is the M40. I know the cam wear problem can happen, although I've never seen one, but I take care what kind of owner I buy my cars from. In short, the M10 was good in its day, but now it's just too primitive and inefficient - carbs. sound good, but these days they really do belong either in a museum or historic race series.
There's also the fact that the last of the M10's were produced in mid '88, so that limits you to saloons with their inferior brakes and suspension. The M40 engine went into the much more desirable touring shell, complete with better brakes and uprated suspension, right up to early '94.

I'm more interested in reliability, simplicity and lower insurance cost. If i were not concerned about reliability, simplicity or insurance cost, I would go straight for an E28 525i or an E30 325i. Which if all goes well and the 316 serves me well would be the car to follow it.

Unless of course I skip the 316 altogether, get something small and reliable like a Lupo 1.0 (sad face) and get an E30 afterwards.

Advantages of the Lupo, cheaper to buy, cheaper to insure, cheaper to fuel.
Advantages of the 316, more interesting, an experience which will clue me up a bit, boost my confidence working on an older car, help me decide if I want to invest in a 25i at all, will hopefuly make money on it when I come to sell it.

I've run a weber carb'd M10 for a year as a daily commuter and all this "they belong in a museum" stuff is bull unless you measure your motoring experience against cars that are new or nearly new. They are what they are but it certainly doesn't feel any slower than 318s I've had (or the 320 auto for that matter but that was a bitch of a car so I'll reserve judgement ). I do close on 20 miles a day - A roads, B roads and the M621 to and from Leeds at rush hour.
The car will bob up the M621 hill at a leisurely 80mph at 3.5k revs without breaking sweat, will sit in jams for hours at a time with the temp gauge dead centre and handles everything with no fuss. Diff is silent, gearing is nice, engine don't rattle and it doesn't feel like it's been thrashed in the past by some wanna be drifter mong. What's gone wrong? Nada, zilch, netto, nowt. Just routine servicing, one set of front pads and a front tyre punctured. Oh no scratch that - plus a front wheel bearing. The price for this year's worth of depreciation free motoring - £500 with 4 months tax and 12 months MOT. They're out there mate and make a good introduction to E30ing.

Cheers Nick. That's the stuff!

Only buy a carb 316 IF it is a REALLY nice car. The 318i M10 and M40 engined cars are MUCH better. These are FACTS based on using/ repairing/owning these car since they were new.

MOST E30s are scrap, clinging to MOTs that need many times their value to return them to being excellent reliable cars. Be sure to not buy one of them

This post is not meant to be negative, just realistic. An E30 is a very simple well made car that can be maintained by an intelligent resourceful person very cheaply. Alas, the newest E30 is now over twenty years old and the relatively low value of these cars mean very few are properly maintained and not in need of major refurbishment

RUST is your biggest enemy , every other issue can be resolved over time relatively economically if you can do the work yourself.

Thanks pacerpete. If you were in my position, what would you do?

Options are get a 316 and then sell it on and get a 325i when I have enough no-claims to allow it, meaning that I will have some experience working with E30's before I get the 325i, but my first year of insurance would be considerably more (but still workable)

Or get a small car (like a Lupo or something) to build up a year or two's no claims, and then go straight to a 325i, meaning that I won't have any experience working with E30's when I get the 325i, but my first year of insurance will be considerably less.

Skip the 316 stage, or go for it?

I can't really go any higher than the lowest of the low carbed 316... Even the insurance difference between an M10 316i and a carbed 316 is massive...

I am also a bit worried about the prices of E30's shooting up by the time I come round to wanting a 325i... So I was thinking that if I get a 316, if it is in decent enough condition, I could use it as the base car and convert it to a 325i. Is that a reasonable proposition, or does that not sound too sensible?

My opinion of the carbed 316 is also based on owning and driving one for a few years. My first E30 was one of these, back in the days when the E30 was still in production, and I was quite happy with it, until I drove a 325. At 90 bhp, the 316 is quite a way behind the 115 bhp of the 318i, or even the 102 bhp of the 316i.
As pacerpete says though, the most important thing is body condition.

90BHP (or what's left of it) will be fine to start off with. Will adding the Webber carbs make any difference to the power output?

I will be looking out for the body condition. I would look for rust in the bay and boot, ask the owner if I can look under the carpet at the floorpan, under the bottom of the car if possible, take a magnet to see if filler has been used to patch anything up, check panel gaps and so on.

I'm sure you may have figured it out, but just in case, the subject of age, insurance prices, and having no NCB came up as major issues because this would be my first car.

Luckily being a bit brighter than most teenage yobbos you see driving around I understand what will wreck an engine, how to take care of a car, and most importantly - the basic laws of physics.

I have no interest in driving like a moron, drifting, or being a 'scene kid'. I don't want an E30 to 'look cool' and drift it. I value life and want an E30 because I love the way they look, and would like a car with a bit more character which I can take care of. I am also very interested in being a part of a motoring community. The one I have found here, and E30/BMW/classic car meetups fit the bill nicely.

I grew up watching my dad create these fantastic vintage motorbikes out of piles of rusted parts which he aquired from all over the place. I used to sit there, fascinated, and he used to tell me what he was doing every step of the way and why haha. Ever since then I have had an interest in older bikes and cars.

I know how to sort out rust and such and I have a vast array of tools at my disposal due to the interests Dad has and the fact he is an engineer. I like to think that armed with the internet, the experienced E30 owners on here, BMW parts lists, schematics, the members E30 market, eBay, the tools, and the help of my Dad in areas where I am less confident, that I will be fine. The experience, along with the potential for things to go wrong and require attention, is one I am all up for if it doesn't break the bank.

acme, i purchased a 316 (carb) M10 auto for my 21st birthday (many moons ago) and enjoyed every mile for the 5 years i owned it. As has been said above, they are straightforward , logical and provided they are maintained will just keep going. If your looking for an intro to the E30 and something to cut your teeth on then a sound M10 is a worthy candidate.

that my 2 cents worth.

Personnelly I would buy the best 316i you can get, this means next to no body corrosion, all the mechanical can be replaced very cheaply.

Also it is a lot harder to find good 325i's, on that basis I would consider putting the 325i running gear into your mint shell in the future.

Note - you can always put put the 325i brakes / struts etc on the 316i until you can insure the bigger engine.

oldroydsr4 wrote:Personnelly I would buy the best 316i you can get, this means next to no body corrosion, all the mechanical can be replaced very cheaply.

Also it is a lot harder to find good 325i's, on that basis I would consider putting the 325i running gear into your mint shell in the future.

Note - you can always put put the 325i brakes / struts etc on the 316i until you can insure the bigger engine.

It would have to be a M10 carbed 316 on the basis of insurance and lack of stuff to go wrong bud, otherwise I would make a beeline for a 316i

But thanks for the advice I was wondering if my idea of converting the 316 to a 325i was logical, or if I was just being a bit daft... To what extent would I need to modify the engine bay etc to put an M40B25 in a 316 shell? Are the mounting points etc different or are they all there? Would I need to have any brackets etc welded on?

Also would it not be more difficult to insure a 316 which has had almost everything swapped out than a car which started life as a 325i?

It may be anything from 6 months to a year until I am actually on the road with it... I am considering buying sooner rather than later and using that time to do up the E30...

IIRC theres no difference in the shells - to convert it to 325i spec later you just need a rotten 325i donor car ( no shortage of them ! ) and swap everything over replacing the consumable bits ( bushes/seals etc ) as you go.

A good place to start is to get Andyboys book :



Theres no reason you cant buy the donor car early and build everything else ( suspension & brakes ) to 325i spec before you swap the engine over.

If you need some inspiration on what can be done with a clean 316 base car check out this build thread :

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... highlight=

Before making plans for engine conversions. Be sure to check with insurers, many insurers will charge more (understandably) for a 316 that has been converted to 325 spec than a factory 325. If this is the case, you may be better off keeping the 316 relatively standard and when you are insureable, then buying a 325. Also worth noting is that the days of complete 325 donors on every street corner for £200 are now over.

Have you checked our the henna red 316 on Ebay that has been mentioned in another thread.? it sounds like a pretty decent car . Alas the time to view and do a deal was earlier on in the auction as it has now attracted quite a bit of attention and the chance of getting a bargain is unlikely

Yeah I saw the 316 mate, I recon it's going to go for silly money. It went up by £400 in 2 days and it still has 6 days left. Currently on around £1200.

acme15 wrote:Yeah I saw the 316 mate, I recon it's going to go for silly money. It went up by £400 in 2 days and it still has 6 days left. Currently on around £1200.

When a car like that appears , you need to be on the case and get their number and arrange to view it asap. If its what you want you negotiate and buy. Obviously this works much better with genuine private sellers . The longer the auction runs and the higher the bids, the less chance of a deal.

That car is very local to me. I was on the case and had the sellers number but something more lucrative turned up in Coventry on Saturday so I went there and by Saturday evening the 316 was past what I wanted to pay as a tight fisted trader type ,so I did not bother following it up.

If it were on a set £1150 (which is what it is on now I believe), I had £1150 to spend on a car *now*, and dare I say it - if it were not red I would be all over it...

acme15 wrote:If it were on a set £1150 (which is what it is on now I believe), I had £1150 to spend on a car *now*, and dare I say it - if it were not red I would be all over it...

To be honest, gone are the days of picking up minters for £1k (even 316s) I reckon that is probably a 2.5k car to the right person.

oldroydsr4 wrote:

acme15 wrote:If it were on a set £1150 (which is what it is on now I believe), I had £1150 to spend on a car *now*, and dare I say it - if it were not red I would be all over it...

To be honest, gone are the days of picking up minters for £1k (even 316s) I reckon that is probably a 2.5k car to the right person.

THIS ! and henna red is now considered one of THE colours to have a chrome turd .