E30 Zone

Not sure if this is even the right place to post this, but i just want to gauge interest to see if its something you guys would use.
We are currently in the process of making a fully programmable plug and play ecu for the motronic ecu as fitted to the E30 325.
It will also have the facility to remove the air flow meter and use a map sensor in place,it will also work on boosted engines.
we hope to have the first one on a car in the next couple of weeks to test and evaluate.

If anyone has any q,s feel free to ask.

cheers Keith

I reckon the first question will be "what is the expected cost"

How much is it expected to cost?

Epic work on the bulkhead on your E30 track car

Wont know that until its all finalized and we are happy its all working ok.
Once we have plugged in to our own car and done some work on the dyno it will be good to go.

it wont be astronomically priced,the install time is expected to be minutes if still using the air mass and maybe an hour if ditching that and using a map sensor.

cheers Keith

sounds like what i will be needing when going turbo ,if its cheaper that megasquirt it should sell well

sunnysr wrote:sounds like what i will be needing when going turbo ,if its cheaper that megasquirt it should sell well

lol..cheaper than megasquirt,there is a reason why megasquirt is cheap and i,m not demeaning it , i cut my teeth on MS.
What i hope to offer is a professional set up built from top quality components by one man ,all to the same spec etc,and it will be able to work with N/A ITB,s and boosted engines,and eventually with base maps for all engine options and ignition configs,either original coil or coil pack and wasted spark.
As i said above price to be confirmed later when the R&D is all done and dusted.

cheers Keith

Watchin'

Oooooooh.

So you could map, say, an m20b28 built engine?

Would it include the same harness as a Motronic box (actual plug and play ALA Apexi for nissan)
How would the unit be controlled ,
Can you have multiple maps
Would it include an option for extra injector outputs
How would it handle atmospheric (sp) pressure changes
Can it integrate with an lambda sensor and auto tune to a specifed CO
For boosted engines would there be an output to control boost.

tomislav wrote:So you could map, say, an m20b28 built engine?

I'm all ears if it can and the price is reasonable!

Rav335uk wrote:Watchin'

me too

Kedge, and apologies to the thread, but what happened to Ant@Atech? If you know, please pm me.

As for this possibility, any ideas yet chaps, can it map an m20b28?

Hi lads, i,ll see if i can answer some of the Q,s,we are working on this to work as a true plug and play for the 3 row 55 pin Motronic ECU,unplug motronic and plug in the replacement.Any configuration of 6 cylinder 12 valve engine connected to the wiring loom should run,i think i,m correct in saying all the M20 and M30 engines run the 60-2 front mounted trigger wheel so all will work from one ECU.
The ECU is fully mapable for both ignition and fuel tables as well as AFR targets from a wideband sensor.
The capability to run up to 8 injectors is also possible.
It will work with the standard air flow set up or you can remove it add a small loom to the air flow plug and then run a map sensor,there will also be the facility to control boost via PWM with a NT75 type valve.
Wideband compatible for AFR target tuning etc.
The only thing i cant tell at the moment is price,like i said earlier i need to get the prototype on the car and test it,then hopefully it will be ready for sale.

Cheers Keith

So have we got a timescale for when the prototype will be on a car tested? A week, a month, 6 months?

I dont mean to come across as being rude at all, i'm just itching for someone to sort/map my 2.8, since ant@atech disappeared/closed down i dont have a trusted way to sort it. If this shows results, or if you need a doner/practice car, then i'm in luck

hi tomislav, we are quite close i think,there should be a ECU on and running within a couple of weeks.
I.ll keep you posted as things progress.

Cheers Keith

Nice one fellas. I'll be watching.

Hi all, sorry for the delay,the wheels of industry have been turning slowly and methodically.This project has taken longer than originally anticipated,but the end result has been worth waiting for.
The ecu arrived with a very basic map and it started and run first time with absolutely no other work than plug the new ecu in and turn the key.
Now we have the hard task[and expensive with the price of petrol]ahead with hours of dyno work ahead to build base maps with all the cold start and warm up enrichments etc sorted out.

As a plug and play set up this runs straight of with the air flow meter,however this still limits the amount of improvement over the stock set up,the way forward is to remove the AFM and replace it with a map sensor,a flying lead can be supplied to do this which just plugs into the stock AFM female plug,very simple to do.From this there are serious gains to be had,i wont give figures until i have the dyno sheets to back it up.

The retail cost for the ECU is £750, this will come with a base map and comms lead plus all technical support and back up.
we are also offering full dyno set up if you need it and cant map it yourself.
We also need some guinea pigs with non standard set ups turbo,m30 engines,super charger, TB,s,bike carbs ,stroker enginesetc as we cant cover every option in house,substantial savings on dyno time and discounted ECU,s for anyone willing.

All q,s will be answered or call me on 01702 258286.

cheers Keith

Very interesting reading there Keith.

Could this work with a MAF instead of the AFM?

Hi guys , here are a couple of pics of the P&P Ecu hot of the production line.
Its a bit smaller than the stock ECU,it also has 2 x RS232 ports ,one is for the programming lead and the second is for a Digi dash which is soon to be released.


Cheers Keith.

[img][img]http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd16 ... 1df933.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][img]http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd16 ... e5bb51.jpg[/img][/img]

Hi all, i have managed to grab a couple of hours on the dyno today and i,m quite pleased with the results[like a pratt i left the memory stick with the graphs on at work] both the torque and power curves are looking good with a 10bhp increase and the torque gains equally impressive.I have got the torque figure higher and earlier in the rev range,the AFR,s still need a bit of tweeking as they are running high 11,s to early 12,s.
Once the cold start and warm up are done the map will be pretty much there as far as the standard set up goes,there may be a few more ponies to be gained but not many.

The next stage will be to remove the flapper air flow meter and replace it with a nice straight through pipe and using a MAP sensor for load reference,this is were we know the big gains lay hiding.

More up dates as and when.

cheers Keith

What ever happened to this thread?

Hi guys , sorry for the long delay in updating this thread,we have just had so much on its been impossible to keep track on things.
We have been making progress and the ECU has been on the car and working since August and we have done quite a few miles around brands hatch and Snetterton with no issues what so ever.

The main thing we have found is its a waste of time mapping the stock air flow meter,it does work ...but .. no where near as good as replacing it with a MAP sensor and separate IAT sensor,the gains doing this are massive.
The other thing that is a must from word go is replacing the stock injectors which are to small for the gains that you will get, we fitted a set of 200cc injectors and copes perfectly with all demands of the engine , most of the time its revving its tits off, we also installed a Zeitronic AFR guage and wideband lambda sensor to monitor the fuelling on track at all loads.
The gains are impressive,the old set up was dyno,d at 164.8 a year or so ago, not bad for a ragged to death track car!!,the results after all the mods was 196.4 ..

We have also been able to play with the rev limiter,last time out at Snetterton we set it to 7500 rpm soft limit and 7750 hard limit, we did around 100 laps with no problems..

All we need now is another standard 325 to try it on , this will make sure all the circuitry is right for all cars and not just our own .

For us it was a worthwhile project with good results,but looking forward to next year I want to get the Dbilas throttle bodies on and mapped using the same ecu , the gains from this are expected to be around 20bhp or so, so with a genuine 220ish at the crank will make it even better..

I,ll try and get a link sorted to the vids etc from this year and also the dyno print out from the last test.

Have a great new year all.

Keith and Jamie Questmotorsport.

Your gains from 164 to 196bhp, is that on a standard M20B25? What comp ratio is it? Is its not standard, what other modifications other than the ECU, AFM delete and injectors are there?

bss325i wrote:Your gains from 164 to 196bhp, is that on a standard M20B25? What comp ratio is it? Is its not standard, what other modifications other than the ECU, AFM delete and injectors are there?

Hi, no other mods done since the original dyno run except for a vernier pulley, its a standard M20 12 valve ,standard c/r, all the extra torque and power has come from the mapping..

cheers Keith

Seems a decent bit of kit,and if it's plug and play,that's even better,

freeflow wrote:

bss325i wrote:Your gains from 164 to 196bhp, is that on a standard M20B25? What comp ratio is it? Is its not standard, what other modifications other than the ECU, AFM delete and injectors are there?

Hi, no other mods done since the original dyno run except for a vernier pulley, its a standard M20 12 valve ,standard c/r, all the extra torque and power has come from the mapping..

cheers Keith

There are 3 different compression ratio M20B25 engines.

Sept 85 to sept 87 is 9.7:1

Sept 87 to sept 88 is 9.4:1

Sept 88 onward or sept 87 with a cat is 8.8:1.

This will be an important into the gains.

Also, how much extra torque did it make?

You also say you used a vernier pulley, why if you used a standard cam?

Your website doesn't work. Interesting bit of kit though!

rix313 wrote:Your website doesn't work. Interesting bit of kit though!

Hi, click the link on the bottom of my post, I just tried it and it went straight in.

cheers Keith

32 bhp peak to peak is nonsense on a healthy stock engine from just a tune alone, the WOT tune is the easy part to get right and heaps of people of done standalone on these things and not seen that. there are certainly healthy gains to be had especially when you start modifying the engine but most gains will be in midrange

also forget about the dbilas unless you have a massive cubic inch increase, massive headwork and 300* camshaft then you will see a bit more topend but still lose alot of torque.

reggid wrote:32 bhp peak to peak is nonsense on a healthy stock engine from just a tune alone, the WOT tune is the easy part to get right and heaps of people of done standalone on these things and not seen that. there are certainly healthy gains to be had especially when you start modifying the engine but most gains will be in midrange

also forget about the dbilas unless you have a massive cubic inch increase, massive headwork and 300* camshaft then you will see a bit more topend but still lose alot of torque.

Sounds like you have tried this before?
How do you know this is the case, any proof?

I would also like to hear more about the reasoning behind a vernier pulley on a single OHC engine.

NoTurbo wrote:

reggid wrote:32 bhp peak to peak is nonsense on a healthy stock engine from just a tune alone, the WOT tune is the easy part to get right and heaps of people of done standalone on these things and not seen that. there are certainly healthy gains to be had especially when you start modifying the engine but most gains will be in midrange

also forget about the dbilas unless you have a massive cubic inch increase, massive headwork and 300* camshaft then you will see a bit more topend but still lose alot of torque.

Sounds like you have tried this before?
How do you know this is the case, any proof?

I would also like to hear more about the reasoning behind a vernier pulley on a single OHC engine.

i've seen it before on a 100% stock engine gains only a handful at the peak most gains midrange there are forums all over where it has been done.

ive done it to a modified engine (custom motronic tune vs custom standalone). same again good gains midrange but not alot at the peak

ive seen stock engine then tuned on standalone and with nice ITB setup at same time (proper size and length not like dbilas paperweight) and it gave about 30bhp.

only way you get 32hp peak gain from a tune only is if the baseline run the car was running wrong in which case it means little in terms of what a well running engine will gain.

there just isnt much power at the topend from playing with fuel and ignition timing

vernier pulley can be used to advance/retard the cam timing which can alter the engine characteristics some. advancing should make more torque and feel more responsive.

You obviously know your stuff reggid, but I think the point you are missing is this, the stock E30 325 [our car] was running a std motronic ecu with the flappy air flow unit, so we are looking at 30 year old technology with a processor that's works on egg timer speed.
So by removing the restrictive AFM,and mapping the fuel and sparks the increase we got is very real.
The stock injectors max,d out at around 5k and started running lean, the 200cc units we now have installed cope with demand ok.

All the work we are doing on this car is experimental,so one step at a time and ultimately extracting the power that BMW could,nt 30 years ago with technology available to them at the time.

We have loads of things palnned for the coming year on both this car and another we are building, the M20 is a great engine with lots of potential and all the results will be posted both on here and our website.

cheers Keith

The stock flap type AFM is restrictive, but it isn't 32hp worth of restrictive, especially when fully open.

I simply don't beleive the stock injectors leaned out on a standard M20B25.

They dont lean out on a 210bhp Alpina 2.7 which uses the exact same injectors.

You also still have not answered my question regards which type of M20B25 is fitted to your car.

Have you also modified the injector loom?

They don't lean out on stock engines. Have seen low powered turbo builds use the stock injectors without leaning out issues.