E30 Zone

Hi

i'm a bit new to all this but here it goes.

I'm looking for a 6 branch for my 325 and have come across 2 brands that no one has ever mentioned on here before

Sebring-i know their stuff is absolutley top drawer. Ths one comes with special pipes which mate up to your front silencer. So a bolt in job
this 1 is Ԛ£400

Supersprint-LHD only, could this be modified to clear the steering column?!
this 1 is Ԛ£600!

Has anyone got one of these or has some experience

thankyou

sebring stuff like you say is normally good gear. I have got my hands on a 6 branch from Fritz's Bits, I got it off another zoner who never fitted it, i have yet to fit it so can't comment on ease of fitting or performance.

I have been told that I will suffer with reduced torque/bottom end power with this particular manifold

I'll have to wait and see how it does actually go. I think it was about Ԛ£400 new.
Here's a pic

As long as the manifold is tuned length it will be fine. Losing torque hmmmm. Depends on the length of the primary pipes. Most generaly should lose you no torque at all but a nice gain top end.

When these manifolds are developed on the test bench by good companys! They alter then length of the primary pipes to totally alter the torque curves. So say short pipes will give more HP top end and long pipes more torque gains. Then a middle length one will give a good increase in both.

Also bore size of the pipe makes a large difference to the power delivery. I notice the raving about Karans Racing dynamics manifold. This probably has the right bore size and pipe length. For him to notice a gain from fitting it on a highly tuned M20. Without even rolling roading it too seems impressive

These BTB manifolds seem to my eyes to be not tuned length at all, so how can they be so good?

Yours looks very good to my eyes again! Should wail lovely with the scorpion too

I'm thinking about reverting to a standard system, the scorpion is just too loud
It's got a cam fitted and chip + FSE, so I'm hopeful of some gains

i am happy also with a standard manifold in mine, although how could you lose power with a 6-branch manifold - and yours has been well builded as per picture...

the cast iron is pretty good to sart with, makes a nice growl at 3k.

They just bow like banana's and snap your manifold studs!

Has anyone with the BTB manifold got some rolling road figures for before and after? Would be well interested.

I have only heard positive things about BTB


Andy

The BTB does not have equal length headers. It does however have a balancer pipe in the downpipes.

Anyone thats used one has only reported back saying their car feels faster.

Bexleys have seen 8 bhp on a dyno with it.

The Fritz Manifold gave 1 bhp top end gain and a loss of bottom end torque again shown on dyno a few years back on the GUG @ Bexleys.

The BTB is also used on Player6's 250 bhp M20.

BTB have designed this manifold properly, it wasnt just thrown together so it would fit. It is a compromise between fit and total outright performance but it works so damn well.

It certainly performs better than the Fritz, Magnex etc which both have shown to be an utter waste of money. They sound nice though!

The best Manifolds are made by three companies - Alpina, Hartge and Racing Dynamics.

Having looked into all of them, none is better than the other, they are all equal length but have different lengths. Hance they are all tuned slightly differently but all work superbly.

I am currently in talks with BTB to rebuild the Alpina design but improve it even further by the addition of the X pipe.

It will be more expensive than the current BTB manifold which I have now run out of stock.

i admit i am biased - joe @btb is a customer and an all round nice bloke but his pedigree on building e30 competition exhausts is unmatched see:

http://www.racecar.com/bmwexhausts/bmwe30exhausts.htm

if it's good enough for prodrive etc - it's probably gonna work on my track car. my 2.7 goes in on monday and he'll be fitting a full no-compromise system to my car next week. apart from design quality etc - key thing for me visiting noise restricted tracks like goodwood on 98db days is a system which passes - i am pissed with other cars i have run being told i can't go out to play. i am also hoping to get a bit of weight saving from the existing system - not just manifold cos the standard system is bloody heavy

i hope to get pix of the install next week as it is fitted which i'll post up - think i am having the alpina manifold m5pilot refers to

shame i have not had the car rolling road tuned beforehand to see the difference - but my chip has just arrived today - thanks ant! and i have not finished running car in yet - although i'll certainly give it a good caning on monday on the way up - so i can remember what the stock system feels like on the old "arse dyno" compared to what she'll have at the end of the week - can't wait

the x pipe flange is for pulse tuned engines like the S14 and S38 not an M20 so i can't see the benfit of this

As said the primary pipes have to be the same length, i can't see how a balancer pipe works as the primarys are different lengths and there for can cause a pulse to be sent up another primary in theory and suck out the air and fuel in that chamber. (this is what a pulse does) Which will not be good for performance!

The effect of these balancer pipes after the collectors makes no sense to me at all. Primary pipes have to be the same or all the rest of the work on the manifold is pointless. I'm still struggling to see the case for this manifold.

A magnex or fritz's bitz manifold will not lose the torque as such, just move it to a different point in the rev range, ie all up top or above 3.5k revs. As they have been designed obviously on a test bench to make them like this.

Anyone on the sebring one? same price as a btb. Or the supersprint?! someone must know here?!

Well BTB must have got lucky because the manifold works very very well. At the end of the day its the dyno that does the talking and the Fritz doesnt do anything for an m20 and nor does a Magnex.

Ive not known BTB to make anything that doesnt work.

If you want a supersprint I can get you one but I really dont think you'll get it to fit. The steering coupling will get in the way.

I am in the process of sending Joe another Alpina manifold which he is going to modify and start making.

I dont know if Racecar is having a manifold but this may well be incorporated into the design.

No offense Helmet, you seem like you know what your talking about but t sometimes theory and practice give two totally different results. I was asking the same questions as yourself before buying in a whole load of BTB manifolds. I didnt think they would be very good until I tried one.

I have fitted the fritz to my own car a while back and in all honesty all I felt was bottom end power losses with no extra gain anywhere.

With the BTB the difference is immediately felt through the rev range.

The Alpina manifold with the balancer pipes should be even better. That does have equal headers and they are about the same length as the Supersprint ones.

If you really want I can get one for you but your looking at a fair bit of cash.

i do believe the x pipe would help with scavenging of the cylinders which shows more benefits the wilder cam you have

scavenging has a noticeable effect on tuned a-series lumps which are pretty ancient and simplistic

so i dont see why it wouldnt have an effect on the m20

btb are an excellent reputable company who wouldnt make crap, plus there is proven gains with their manifold..

Here is the Supersprint:





Here is the Alpina item:



Not too different in terms of header length but the Alpina manifold curves around the steering column.

The supersprint one will hit the steering column - Topgear in Battersea had one and they tried to fit it and it just didnt happen. You would need to modify it alot. If you did this it would no longer have equal length headers.

Also take a close look at the Supersprint, the headers are not equal at all.

note - the Supersprint one utilises a x pipe!

Yeah I forgot to mention that. Well spotted.

If both BTb and Supersprint feel the need to get an X pipe in there then I think its a worth while addition.

Definately - companies like them dont put stuff like that in (which costs extra Ԛ£Ã”šÃ‚£) if it does nothing

No this is all good things being said here!

I've contacted Sebring and it seems that their manifold too is LHD only which is a real shame as they are up there with the big boys. I have asked for a picture to see what the crack is. Well a picture of one fitted and one off a car

Supersprint one looks the business. I can imagine the noises being made from that!

I will have to dive further into the X pipe and it's uses and benefits

This Alpina picture shown M5 pilot is this for RHD or LHD, or did luck have it they will fit on both.

I would be interested in an Alpina / X pipe mutant manifold you mention. But only with a rolling road evidence on a standard 325i. This is having your cake and eating it!

The Alpina pic is of a RHD drive version.

The mutant will be around in the coming weeks.

Dyno testing - can be done but do remember, a mod like this compliments further modifcations and on a standard 325i your not going to get massive gains without a remap.

When I fitted my BTB the fuelling went very lean, it needed alot more fuel to perform to its maximum.

Price will be alot higher than the BTB unless we do a group buy of 10.

Does the Alpina 6 branch also fit around an E36 steering rack conversion? Would this new one?

Aston

astondg wrote:Does the Alpina 6 branch also fit around an E36 steering rack conversion? Would this new one?

Aston

Get me some pics of the steering rack fitted. I doubt it very much.

The BTB 6 branch manifold on my M Tech1 Sport sounds awesome......

Definately pulls harder and worth it for the noise alone!

Quite simple....get one! End of!

Stu

RSTurbo50 wrote:The BTB 6 branch manifold on my M Tech1 Sport sounds awesome......

Definately pulls harder and worth it for the noise alone!

Quite simple....get one! End of!

Stu

I think I did my research well in this area. it is undoubtedly a fantastic product which does just more than give a noticeable power gain through the entire rev range.

We all know the Racing dynamics manifold is better than anything that btb can tosh together!

X pipes? if this was so good why didn't our heros at Alpina and Hartge use it?

U don't need an X pipe if your pipe work is equal length then jhonno.

This is why the btb has one then. Now i understand!

We can go on about this all day and say which manifold is better than the other.

Simon - The BTB isnt "toshed" up - the quailty and consistency is just brilliant. The damn thing works and Hartge used this manifold on their H26's so it aint bad!

The Racing Dynamics vs Alpina and Hartge:

Look at it all more carefully and what you find is that they all use very big pipe bore, they are all equal length. The ONLY difference is the length of the headers. The Racing dynamics having the longest but this doesnt mean they are the best and they arent a huge amount longer than the Alpina ones anyway. What little difference it would make on two identical cars would not be able to be felt on the road.
If the Racing Dynamics was so special it would have made GUG like so much faster on the road which it isnt - Ive been in the car before Karan had it and after.

Just been passed an email by someone who asked Fritz a Question about their 6 branch.


Rich @ Fritz reckons their manifold flows 17% better than an Alpina one because the collectors are better (yeah ok then!).

He states the following:

"The tracks are not equal length because there is less need for cylinder balancing as the engine feeds from a metered source (ie injectors) and not from a carb"

Also states that by fitting his manifold to someone's C2 2.7, they got 32 bhp gains.....yes 32 bhp.

Are these guys for real?

Why dont we all stop wasting out time with the 2.7 conversions and just buy the Fritz Manifold.

why don't we stop listening to your sales pitches too!

tell you what Sal, pay for 2 power runs for my car, before and after fitting the Fritz bits manifold, I will fit this in isolation to any other engine mods (obviously the runs will take place on 2 separate occasions a week or so apart) but the same RR will be used.

Its late in the day i know, but my old H26 had a X-pipe fitted to it. Only realised it meant something having read this.

At the end of the day, many of the systems make similar power gains. Your more likely to notice a difference in the way your car performs by stripping out some weight, than making 3bhp over another system.

IMHO of course.

Simon13 wrote:why don't we stop listening to your sales pitches too!

You really are a class A Pr*ck arent you!

E30BeemerLad wrote:tell you what Sal, pay for 2 power runs for my car, before and after fitting the Fritz bits manifold, I will fit this in isolation to any other engine mods (obviously the runs will take place on 2 separate occasions a week or so apart) but the same RR will be used.

No probs dude!

Only one problem. Quaser just bought the last manifold.

As mentioned in a previous post I wont be ordering anymore as its alot of investment. I have to buy quite a few at a time.

Seeing as everyone is an engineer here and has written the BTB off as a naff product I wont bother selling them anymore.

I'm still confused after reading what u have said, your now saying the BTB is a hartge copy? or as u said before it is supposed to be a system develpoed by btb? Your saying far too many things that make no sense.

Slagging off magnex and fritz bits is all very good, but u don't even have a dyno printout to show the gains of the btb on a standard 325. You don't lose torque with these manifolds they simply alter the delivery of the torque to be all top end. Or some do

Hartge designed their manifold for 2.7's and 2.6's not a standard 2.5 engine.

Simon13 wrote:I'm still confused after reading what u have said, your now saying the BTB is a hartge copy? or as u said before it is supposed to be a system develpoed by btb? Your saying far too many things that make no sense.

Slagging off magnex and fritz bits is all very good, but u don't even have a dyno printout to show the gains of the btb on a standard 325. You don't lose torque with these manifolds they simply alter the delivery of the torque to be all top end. Or some do

Hartge designed their manifold for 2.7's and 2.6's not a standard 2.5 engine.

Magnex Manifold: Fitted to Ants car with lots of torque lost at the bottom end of the rev range - peak torque unchanged and stayed where it is. Seen Ants dyno print out of this.

Fritz Manifold - exact same result but with only 1 bhp gains on a mighty 2.7. Had it fitted to my own car which was a 2.5 and it did NOTHING other than sound nice.

BTB Manifold: Design taken from hartge (early H26 only have 50cc more - like its going to make a really big difference!), modified and improved upon. They did do development work.

Anyway, it doesnt matter - I'm no longer offering the BTB manifolds so I have nothing to gain from any of this.

The reality of it is this - not one person who has fitted the BTB has compained about low end torque loss (if anythiing they have felt more torque from low engine speeds). They have all come back and said there is definately more grunt through the rev range. Oh and it sounds bloody good too which is an additional bonus.
It flows well enough to allow Player6's to produce 250bhp.

Anyone who ever fitted the fritz and MAgnex has come back with saying low end torque losses and nothing gained top end - nice noise though. This is a mixture of 2.7 and 2.5 owners.

The BTB was a great product and its the opinion of the people who bought them that counts. It is however no more.

Just fit your Racing Dynamics Manifold - that should work better than BTB.

If demand is enough I can in the near future get something which is near enough the same as the RD (possibly better) but it will be double the cost of the BTB. It will come with downpipes and an X section if one is required.

Ants car also had the full magnex zorst, a cam and chip i think. There are too many other variables as to the "loss" down low, to assume it was the manifold.

Wheres Ant to back what your saying?

to be fair i don't believe alot of whats said about power outputs on cars that come off bexleys rolling road. I'm sure if i spent 10k on an M20 mine would make 350bhp according to them!

btb manifolds have been on ebay in the past few months...................

U have said btb have had this manifold for the 325 since it came out?!

fritz are another story, their manifolds are outsourced and made else where and just have their stamp on them. They have not even been offering them for long

When I met Ant he had fitted the 6 branch only, he complained then that it lost him low end power.

He then bought the cam off me and fitted it and it aggrevated the problem even more. All other mods cam after that.

Bexleys:
So what your saying is that that Alpina C2 I brang to Aces doesnt have 215 bhp? Its gruntier than Karan's car mate which made 213 bhp on the same rollers. Both of those cars must therefore have false power outputs.

Also saying Player6's car aint 250bhp? I'm sure he will happily prove you wrong at any dyno. That machine will wipe the floor with all the 2.7's out there.

Hey my m5 made 305 bhp there, its rated at 315 bhp from factory, that must be wrong aswell.

BTB's on ebay - very old second hand ones painted in black. One was a poor copy.

The Fritz manifold has been around for years, way before you got came to the Zone.

Simon13 wrote:Ants car also had the full magnex zorst, a cam and chip i think. There are too many other variables as to the "loss" down low, to assume it was the manifold.

Wheres Ant to back what your saying?

to be fair i don't believe alot of whats said about power outputs on cars that come off bexleys rolling road. I'm sure if i spent 10k on an M20 mine would make 350bhp according to them!

btb manifolds have been on ebay in the past few months...................

U have said btb have had this manifold for the 325 since it came out?!

fritz are another story, their manifolds are outsourced and made else where and just have their stamp on them. They have not even been offering them for long