E30 Zone

As you might recall, I'm a bit new to RWD and E30s and I've had a few scary moments in the wet.

Well, since fitting Eagle F1s a few weeks back I've been carefully exploring the car's performance in the damp a bit. I realised that the wet handling had potential to scare me/catch me out, so I've been concentrating on not taking corners too fast, but also making myself prod a little bit to see what happens here and there.

I've also perfected the low speed 90 deg turn on the wide gravel area outside our rented unit. That's turned out to be good practice, because the first time I did it the sudden-ness of the turn in scared me a bit, but now it feels normal. This practice has paid off in the wet, because I now have a much more sensitive feel to what happens when the back starts to move.

Anyway, I'd say that overall, I'm starting to get a feel for this and mainly trust the car. However, I've still had moments when I felt a bit scared, generally when coming off roundabouts. I think that if I maintain the "not too fast" learning approach then my confidence will build up properly without any disasters. TBH, I've found the car very entertaining and fun to drive, even slowly.

It seems that one of the most important things to do with the car is to not "death grip" the wheel and then it will actually self centre itself. ie: let the car talk to the driver. I've sussed the fact that careful application of the correct amount of power is also key; no sudden inputs or excessive power on wet bends. It's all very satisfying. Howeber, I still fear the car somewhat - I don't know it well enough yet.

I'm interested to hear how my thoughts compare with others who've driven these more.

Oh yes, yesterday, in the dry I had a proper oversteer moment, probably my first. I think the gravel practice paid off because, despite everything happening quickly, it all sorted itself out intuitiuvely.

Agreed the '30 can be slippery when wet in all its guises, the M3 and 2.5 models in particular .

You've 100% done the right thing exploring the handling in a closed environment, perhaps a track or drift day would help put you more at ease with these antics?

My SE is almost undrivable in the wet, especially drizzle.... Almost

definately, practice makes perfect, in my experience the e30 is a well balanced car and when the back end kicks out it as good as sorts itself out as long as you dont panic, i perfected drifting in my last car , a cosworth converted toyota celica which had terrible 75-25 weight distibution as the interior was stripped out with just 2 seats. when your back end kicks out when you floor it in third at 70mph, you soon learn about control...and it certainly gets the blood pumping

Good man!!

Iv been driving rwd for about 2 years now (my e30 and a 3lt capri with lsd)

its just something no one can really tell you how to do it, just learn to read the car, and make sure you dont over correct it, also on the exit of roundabouts.... that can be a shit in pants moment everynow and then because you dont always have enough room!

Good luck! Be careful but enjoy yourself!

I know exactly where your coming from Tom and keep taking it easy and the slow route.

Me i was just like u for good reason. Why?

Chritstmas day 2001. Been to see the misses, it's wet,i'm 18, no ones around, had my 318i 3 months, i'm a hero bla bla bla. Twisty road with cheap tyres she goes mid bend at 60mph, which was way too fast. The back end just went i fishtailed down the road nearly escaping but as i had no power steering on that thing it all got too much after about the 5th slide so i let go of the wheel and hit a tree which in turn guided me onto a stump. gutted i was I got so much i didn;t do any braking as i was just so involved with steering it.

Anyway after i fixed the car on the motorway in the wet or even driving in the wet i was sh!t scared all the time for a long time. Even when i had your 318iS i never did anything in the wet in that and always too k it steady.

Now i have learnt alot more and have a good set up on my 325 i can drive at a good pace in the wet and with confidence in what me and the car is doing! plus that drift day i did was well worth it.

It's Ԛ£60 they do them twice a month go up in Dec/Jan when it's cold and greasy and u will slide about and not fook the car. Silverstone is where they do it mate. I would like to go again in the wet this time though

You know what the simple answer is...


Stop puting you foot down......................nah

for me the following have to be done to feel safe driving quick in adverse conditions:

good bushes
shocks /springs in good nick
decentish tyres
all balljoints/mounts maintained
and an LSD!

ive followed the above list with my touring driftcar and its really easy to drive and drift .... although it does still understeer first as opposed to just fling its arse out

I just been out, to much rain. Its fine if you can catch it, but sometimes there isnt much feedback there depending on the type of road you are on. Thats when I find it gets a bit lairy, because there isnt always the warning signs. Thats why I just ride sloooooow in the wet

I aint a fan of driving in rain at the best of times, people drive to close to you, and dont give enough space or time. Just the other week I was bringing a car back for work, in the rain, woman in 3 cars infront stops to let some guy out of the petrol station on a 40 road ( the exact road where my fcking iS was written off - same situation to!!). Now I have left plenty of space infront of me (seen it all before...) so I manage to slow down perfectly fine, but the woman behind me left hardly any space at all, locks her brakes and slides in to the back of the works car

Twice its happened to me now, luckily it didnt write the car off, like it did my iS

Ive had a couple of pants browning moments in the wet as well where the car has just snapped out big time without any warning. Both times were when turning onto dual carriageways at about 45.
Thankfully each time I got it back in straight away but it certainly woke me up each time!
Being lowered at least 60mm doesnt help things.

I spun my car on a muddy wet roundabout within a mile of buying it

But with new rear suspension, never had a problem since.

Still surprisses me sometime though, last week on the A10 in central london turning out in front of one of those hudge bendy buses I got quite a bit of fish tailing...was greesy

Should have seen the bus drivers face! was a classic inthe rear view mirror.

Girlfriends got to the point where she doesn't even say anything, just carries on talking about what in the shops....

Gwynleym10 wrote:Girlfriends got to the point where she doesn't even say anything, just carries on talking about what in the shops....

Girlfriend: I found these really nice shoes but they want GBP400.
Gwynleym10: That's great.
Girlfriend: Are you listening to me?
Gwynleym10: I'm just a little bit busy.

I have competed in dirt circuit racing for 2 years now which involves plenty of sidewaysness and slippery surfaces (they water the track sometimes too so it changes) and I have also done a few advanced driver training days so that should give me a little bit of confidence driving in the rain and my E30 is very well behaved. I still don't really like driving in the rain though, I always think it would be nice if I had DSC or something. I have also had my E30 go sideways on me in the rain, once was unexpected when I was braking for an intersection and I managed to control it ok and still made the corner but instead of helping my confidence I think unexpected stuff like that destroys it.

I had to drive my fathers Evo VI for a few hours on the main motorway here in heavy rain and even in that car (AWD should be perfectly suited to those conditions) I still wasn't comfortable and I was driving slower than most of the other traffic.

Aston

Its all good and well learning the limits of your car in the wet, but show it a patch of oil or diesel on a wet surface and that all goes out the window, as I've learned.

I'm a lot more cautious in the wet since I wrote off my 325 - thats not to say I blame the cars handling, but I like to give myself a safety margin and drive a bit slower on bends and roundabouts because, despite owning a few RWD cars, my last 325 scared the sh1t out of me that fateful day.

Instead of driving at 7/10ths in the wet, Im now more like 4-5/10ths and its gonna take a while to get my confindence back up

I must be doing something wrong, as I have no problems driving in the rain. I'd really have to provoke it to get it out of shape, and that's with over 300bhp to play with

Maybe it's because I've always had rear wheel drive cars or something, but I'd quite happily drive for hundreds of miles in the wet without even thinking about it.

I honestly never thought I would say this, but maybe you should try slowing down a bit...

Ian.

When i had my first Alfa 75 i use to lose it all the time at low speed and high speed and it scared the sh*t out of me

But i'd only been driving 6 months then and my car control wasent good enough

But 2 years later and i really feel in control all the time in my new Alfa 75 and i'll allways have rwd from now on hopefully a E30 will join the 75 soon

3litre 75's are an absolute hoot in the wet. I did a knockhill trackday in the wet using a 75 3litre, power oversteer on demand, so controlable. My current 325 sport is the same. I think alot of the progressiveness is down to the condition of the lsd. This one is better than my last sport, and it slides so much nicer. A lot better traction when you want it, and a lot better fun when provoked. I just sold an Impreza Type R, the adjustable centre diff is evil in the wet. In "nearly locked" it understeers, and in "open" make sure you have your cast iron trousers on. T-junctions become kerb avoiding exercises. I would take my sport (standard suspension and eagle f1's) in the wet over the Subaru anyday.

Only ever had one scary moment in wet, went around island, planted foot to floor abit to early, fishtailed but got it under control pretty easily.

Best fun is in the snow, then the real fun begins

Lets face it, whats the point of having a RWD car without having fun getting it out of shape.

ian332isport wrote:I must be doing something wrong, as I have no problems driving in the rain. I'd really have to provoke it to get it out of shape, and that's with over 300bhp to play with

Maybe it's because I've always had rear wheel drive cars or something, but I'd quite happily drive for hundreds of miles in the wet without even thinking about it.

I honestly never thought I would say this, but maybe you should try slowing down a bit...

Ian.

My car is the same (minus about 150hp ), it feels very good in the wet and would only really slide if I provoked it. The time it went sideways under brakes the road had mud on it and it was raining and I was turning while braking (the intersection was on a corner) and I was going reasonably fast considering the conditions and it still wasn't hard to control BUT the reason I don't like driving in the wet is because I always think about the what ifs and I don't have a lot of confidence in my abilities (I can't imagine how my passengers must feel ). The car has always been very good, but then with only 150hp I guess it shouldn't have much problem.

Aston

ian332isport wrote:I must be doing something wrong, as I have no problems driving in the rain. I'd really have to provoke it to get it out of shape, and that's with over 300bhp to play with

Maybe it's because I've always had rear wheel drive cars or something, but I'd quite happily drive for hundreds of miles in the wet without even thinking about it.

I honestly never thought I would say this, but maybe you should try slowing down a bit...

Ian.

I agree, Ian....I rarely get out of shape (unless it is deliberate) in either the 325 or the M3...
Like yerself, I've pretty much always had RWD cars and the E30 has a chassis that easily copes with the power provided by the available motors...

If you're having problems, and assuming your car isn't lowered too much and the suspension/subframe bushes are all in good condition, then, as Ian says...Slow Down!!

Another thing to remember about our cars, is that we need to be more carefull when we drive they both come with the modern driving aids like traction control and ASC etc. i took my dads 2000 e-class around a corner once (the road was a little wet) and the dash lit up like a chrismas tree, (esp, ASC, traction etc) and i remember telling myself if i was in the BM i would have definitly lost her. live and learn boys

Hyperion wrote:Another thing to remember about our cars, is that we need to be more carefull when we drive they both come with the modern driving aids like traction control and ASC etc. i took my dads 2000 e-class around a corner once (the road was a little wet) and the dash lit up like a chrismas tree, (esp, ASC, traction etc) and i remember telling myself if i was in the BM i would have definitly lost her. live and learn boys

Id be the one drifting round the outside of you balancing the car on the throttle.

You want to learn car control?, try driving a TVR on ice. Quite interesting looking out the drivers window at your direction of travel

I no longer have a problem at all, i actually like driving in the rain. Its more fun!

Please don't forget that all cars will lose grip soonner in the wet, especially if the driver has made an error.

i don't like all these electronic "driver aids", it may prevent some accidents, but it doesn't imporve the standard of driving. People will eventually not know how to deal with a car on its limits (many don't know now). Drivers will however still gover over these limits all cars (what ever electronics) will will loose grip eventually if you go fast enough. Rasing this bar (i.e speed) means that the eventual crash will be far worse.

What happens if the electronics fail? It has been known

Would you really want to drive a car wich is fundementaly a bad handler which is just covered up by electronics (i.e the Merc A class)?

E30's let you know what happening , explore these limits and the car won't scare you.

i think all drivers should go to a skid pan when they have passed their test, to fundementaly understand how a car handles

Gwynleym10 wrote:i think all drivers should go to a skid pan when they have passed their test, to fundementaly understand how a car handles

I'm with Gwyn on this one

I did a skid pan day last year, and it was superb. It's worth going to Castle Coombe for this, as they have a proper slippy surface, and not one of these weird things with extra wheels. That also use E30's

I also won the little time trial they ran at the end

Ian.

I'd agree with that.

I have a healthy scepticism when it comes to friction (of the tyre and tarmac type) so I always leave a nice big, probably bigger than the 2second rule, gap to the car infront. I also generally take corners much slower than I probably could, for fear of the greasy bit of road or whatever.

None of my mates do this which leaves me having kittens, especially when they're understeering or I can feel the back end of their cars slide a bit, when they don't even notice!

People need educating when it comes to speed and stopping distances, plus the effect conditions should have on cornering speeds etc.

i have no expirence driving one of the old Porsche 911's, but i read that those cars were a real handful in the rain and Dry!!
If you could handle a old porsche at speed on corners , you were a proper driver. I once read a reporter saying it "was more of a case of slideing the car into corners than actually turning into them..."

First RWD vehicle I ever drove was a LWB Mercedes Sprinter, first time I took it out was absolutely pissing down with rain. This thing had tyres made out of plastic, and no weight in the back, and a 3.0 litre turbo diesel lump in the front thumping out mega torque. Had a serious brown trouser moment going round a huge roundabout, almost full lock on with both back wheels spinning. Had to pull over cos I was shaking so much, drive a lot calmer now lol....

ian332isport wrote:I must be doing something wrong, as I have no problems driving in the rain. I'd really have to provoke it to get it out of shape, and that's with over 300bhp to play with

Maybe it's because I've always had rear wheel drive cars or something, but I'd quite happily drive for hundreds of miles in the wet without even thinking about it.

I honestly never thought I would say this, but maybe you should try slowing down a bit...

Ian.

I agree Ian... however ure engines power must be very very linear as most ///M engines are. this really really helps in dodgy conditions

you should try driving in the wet with these

<--------

great fun

Well, I think I'm moving forwards more than I realised. I met up with someone tonight to deliver a gearbox. He was in an E30 325 Touring. When he saw my iS he said that he had wanted one. This led to us spending about an hour talking about how great E30s are. Then he said "I've always wanted to try one". So I told him to have a drive. We ended up going out onto some twisty B roads because I said to him that it was the only way to really appreciate the car. He loved it; absolutely loved it.

Then I had a go; didn't drive too hard because it was drizzling and a bit dark for my liking. Anyway, when we got to a large roundabout to turn left I gave it a bit of a turn of speed round the corner and managed a really confident and tidy turn round the corner. I gave it a fair portion of throttle once it was all loaded up nicely. He was "wahey you've got the back end out there". Wasn't "oh my god I'm going to die" comment, but I think it was noticeable enough. I was pretty chuffed TBH. I think I'm just starting to move up off the very bottom of the learning curve, and providing I don't get cocky, I can really get into this in the next few months.

I also demonstrated the trick of giving the car a good load of throttle about 1/2 way round a 15-20mph bend and the back coming round a bit. ALl nice intuitive stuff really.

My God I love the E30!

when u floor it like u said kick the clutch then the back will go for sure!

So, kicking the clutch should give a similar effect to lifting off the throttle then? Is it the lack of drive that makes the effect, or does one of the rear wheels spin up when the clutch lifts back up?
I think I'll leave doing that until I've got a lot of space to practice on.

tomstickland wrote:So, kicking the clutch should give a similar effect to lifting off the throttle then? Is it the lack of drive that makes the effect, or does one of the rear wheels spin up when the clutch lifts back up?
I think I'll leave doing that until I've got a lot of space to practice on.

It's not the lack of drive that make's the car drift, it's like doing a wheel spin from stand still but in mid flow round a round about.
Without an lsd you will find that the wheel with less weight on will spin and the other will drive you round the bend leaving you with an unsuccessful drift. Kicking the clutch upset's the set up and make's the drive wheel spin leaving with a successful drift but alway's remember to be ready to turn into your skid very quickly as it is a fast reaction

When I made a comment ealier about wanting DSC or something I meant purely for normal road driving when I have no intention of using it but just to have it there incase. I would still drive sensibly and it would just be a backup. If I find a good road with not much traffic and room for me make small mistakes or when I am on the track it would deffinately be switched off. I am all for doing the driving myself and I would not want the DSC interfering BUT when there are other cars involved and no room for mistakes and I don't want to be concentrating 100% on keeping the car straight I wouldn't mind having something like DSC there just incase because I don't trust my own skills that much.

I went to a skid pan some time last year, very good fun and with the diesel on the road it kept the speeds well down so a very safe environment for learning about car control. At the time my LSD was worn out and sometimes it wouldn't lock up and others it would and when it changed mid corner it was exciting . I didn't win the time trail at the end, someone there had an AWD which gave a little advantage over my broken LSD.

Aston

I agree with Ian332 , I've never had a problem in the wet and find I can push the car fairly hard . Karan made a good point too about having the car in top shape , bushes , tyres etc , it makes a big difference to the way the car feels/handles .
Steve .

lack of drive will make the back end light and happy.

When you lift off the throttle or dip the clutch you change the weight distribution of the car, under power wieght is over the rear wheels. Lift off or remove drive weight moves to the front and the rear is light which equals tail out or spin.

JimmyC wrote:lack of drive will make the back end light and happy.

When you lift off the throttle or dip the clutch you change the weight distribution of the car, under power wieght is over the rear wheels. Lift off or remove drive weight moves to the front and the rear is light which equals tail out or spin.

This idea work's for FWD car's as it's the drive wheel's that send the weight to the front as it's them stopping the car and making the back light.

This is probably gonna sound silly but here i go....................

Imagine you are pushing a shopping trolley and you are the drive wheel's as you are pushing.
If someone all of a sudden stop's you at the front the rear of the trolley will rear up.
If you was to all of a sudden stop the trolley really fast you would be pulling on the trolley, not making it lighter.

If you let the rear of the car swing out whilst coasting round corner's/roundabout's then there is no control as it is not driving thus causing more of an opportunity to loose control of the car as it will snatch when into drive again.
Kicking the clutch only send's you out of drive for a split sec so you are still in control.

You will alway's have more control over any car when it is in drive, not coasting