E30 Zone

Basically, since the ripe old age of 21 (a few weeks back) I have thouroughly enjoyed the experience of taking advantage of test drives and have taken out a handful of much more modern cars. My favorite of the lot was the Focus ST3 2.5L turbo. Nice car, but wouldn't buy one.

I also got insured in my parents Alfa Romeo 156 2.0 T Spark. Pretty nice car, but still has too many downsides to make it a truely nice car.

What I'm getting to is everthing I've drove still just doesn't feel as fun as a good running 325i. Nothing. Handling, playful engine (not necessarily powerful!) comfort, driving position, and so on.

The only cars I have so far avoided driving (well haven't had a chance apart from a Z4 which i chose to drive the ST over) are newer BMWs. IMO and from what others say, BMW have gotten better and better, apart from maybe their looks in a few models... which makes me think?

Do other people agree with me on this, but as 1. a drivers car, 2. a FUN car, and 3. in general a good car, that the E30s are still really good in terms of a lot of modern rubbish.

Obviously I haven't had the chance to go an test drive many cars that where in the same sort of budget as an E30... so yet to drive and mercedes or audi's etc.

Just thinking about people's opinions about the E30 and how good they are to modern standards, and with a few improvements (such as revitialising all the bushes, upgrades like steering racks and other bits and bobs).

But all this is swaying me more and more to my beloved E30s and making my next car move either an E30 M3 if one ever comes up for sale in my pathetic island, or an E36 M3 (kicking myself for not looking at the 3.2L Evo that was up for sale last month!).

Just expressing my thoughts a bit, but see some others as well!

I'd have a E30 over a Euro Shitbox anyday

Love driving mine, hearing that 6 pot

Exactly! I'm sure theres many, many nice new cars... but being 21 I have only drove about 20 different cars and not so many of them have been newer.

Btw, reading back, when I say same sort of budget as an E30, I meant to say equivalent new cars. So the E46's or general new bwm/merc/audi/jag etc....

E30 all day long, End of.

I have a soft spot for real jap car's though , had a Evo and Scooby before

ImysE30 wrote:I have a soft spot for real jap car's though , had a Evo and Scooby before

I should slap you...

Personally not a fan of Jap cars or what they stand for in terms of a car. To me jap cars are designed to be quick, quick and quick with no "flair". Smooth engines, or stupidly high revving engines that just dont do it for me.

Granted I've never drove and Evo, or a Scooby, but have thought about them when an older ragged Jap Crap comes up for sale for less than £2000 and 50k on the clock. Not my type of car though.

ImysE30 wrote:I have a soft spot for real jap car's though , had a Evo and Scooby before

have you cake and eat it quickly, they wont last long..

NayC wrote:

ImysE30 wrote:I have a soft spot for real jap car's though , had a Evo and Scooby before

I should slap you...

Personally not a fan of Jap cars or what they stand for in terms of a car. To me jap cars are designed to be quick, quick and quick with no "flair". Smooth engines, or stupidly high revving engines that just dont do it for me.

Granted I've never drove and Evo, or a Scooby, but have thought about them when an older ragged Jap Crap comes up for sale for less than £2000 and 50k on the clock. Not my type of car though.

Don't knock till you've driven one

I have a Honda Civic (new shape) as a daily driver and it does it very well

I'd love to stick a Supra 3.0 engine in my E30 and turn up the boost

Try it... has anyone even attempted putting Jap engines into an E30?

I think an E30 with an Evo engine would be a bit... mad?

There are a couple of people who have done it IIRC, dare to think what it would cost though

Evo engine would be more challenging due to the 4wd

I work for a major carmaker (not BMW) and as part of my job drive many competitor's cars. Everything from the Hyundai Getz to Bentley Continental GT.

I've had an E36 318iS and 2 E30 318i (one of which I still own). And it is quite telling that when I'm explaining what makes a good car at work I have to reference my 19-year-old E30 all the time.

The whole old-car/new-car thing is a little unfair, as back in the 80s there wasn't the emissions and crash legislation there is today. Even with the same design-brief and increased development budget a manufacturer would be hard-pressed to make the E30 today. But yes, I'd say my E30 is easily better than most of the modern stuff I drive. That's in terms of handling feel & balance, linearity and controllability of the engine, ride & handling balance, durability, and perceived quality (such as switch feel and material quality). I don't have any kids or any load requirements. Most people do, so hatchbacks are a necessary evil. Hence the 1-series.

Speaking of which, you said modern BMWs have gotten better. I'd say that's a very sweeping and not wholly accurate statement - they've become more suitable for the average customer but in doing so they've dulled the experience, made it more average. The E36 had a faster steering rack than the E30 so it had some wicked bump-steer and kickback. It was also signifigantly heavier than the E30. iDrive was a disaster. The introduction of runflat tyres ruined the suppleness of the ride comfort. The E80 and E90 series have quite cramped rear seats and the ride/handling balance is gone - capable but relatively numb handling and quite busy ride especially on the larger wheels. For my money the E30 is a much more balanced and impressive tool than the later versions.

Having said that, my next car is probably going to be an E46 330Ci.

Sounds like a sweet job dude!

I was looking at a stunning Blue E46 330i M-sport. Didn't take it for a test drive, but hoping to take one out soon! They seem like really good cars.

But I do know what you mean. All my mates (bar one who ownes and loves his E30), dont get what I'm on about when I say the E30 is still my favorite car. I took them out in the parents alfa and they where saying "sweet car" etc, but still, I'd rather my 320i auto... let alone my 325i (if it was running right..).

I just think everything about driving them is near perfect apart from a few easily sortable things, such as putting a faster/better steering rack in etc.

But to be fair... couldn't of come from a more experienced man! Thanks!

Only car I have owned and would say it up there with the e30 for build quality , drivability and style is the MK1 MX-5! I owned a V-special and it was a epic little car and even at 15 years old it was like a new car. Shame some theaving little pikey nicked it when it had 3 days MOT left as it got scrapped with out me even being told!

Iv had 2 Subarus, classic shape, one was a rare RB5 with the prodrive kit.....I loved it to be honest, the noise, the power, handled like nothing else and would I buy another, Yes I would...

Got an E60 520d M Sport as my daily runner, fantastic car, great looks, 45mpg and not bad at 8 secs to 60.....

Still love the E30 though...


Stu

I have two E30's ('84 2dr and '85 4dr 318i) and a '05 120i as the daily driver. Nothing too powerful there!

I have always loved the E30's and couldn't sell either of mine (too much invested in them, both in $$ and ). Both standard except for new Recaro driver seats each and UUC short shifters, and the '85 has thermo fan.

The '85 will only ever be for shows now. I like driving it a lot, but the 1 does everything much better. Quicker, grip, fuel economy, safety, voice controlled bluetooth, all parts are still available!, auto lights and wipers, little lights out of the door handles...

So that all says I am getting older I guess. Love my E30's and my E87 and can't see any of them going away anytime soon!

Ah the joys of model-specific forums

Yes, 20+ yr old E30s are miles better than anything else on the road

I'm not biased at all and whilst I enjoy my E30 I'm fully aware that there are many, many newer cars that are fantastic, and some are better than an E30 in pretty much every way.

C'mon guys, E30s are good, but let's have a reality check!

ETA: PMSL about the 'jap cars have no flair' comment above, from someone that's never driven a scoob or evo ha ha.

I'm personnaly talking about the feel of the car. Not against power/grip/equipment etc.

As I said above, I'm yet to drive a modern bmw or any cars that are direct competition. But I have drove quite a few cars now and non have that feel to them that the E30 does. TBH, my 325i handles better than most of the modern tat I've tested.

My old Mk1 MX5 'felt' better than my E30. I agree with the sentiment that a lot of modern cars are overweight, dull and devoid of much feel, but there are plenty out there that still have the magic.

Please name some of the good'uns as I'd like to try them.

Bearing in mind I'm 21 so wont be able to walk into an aston martin or porshe or ferrari garage as such and take one of those cars for a spin, but reasonable bmw's and such are no problem!

bramley wrote:My old Mk1 MX5 'felt' better than my E30. I agree with the sentiment that a lot of modern cars are overweight, dull and devoid of much feel, but there are plenty out there that still have the magic.

Really? My wife's got a Mk2.5 MX-5. It has a much faster steering rack than the E30 (faster than the E36 too), so it gives a very responsive, direct feeling to the steering. But in terms of pure communication as to what the front wheels are doing I don't think it is as good. And the ride is quite busy, with noticeable scuttle shake.

Like I said before, the thing about the E30 for me is the balance. Good grip, good fore/aft balance, small steering delay, very lienar controllable power delivery, decent low-rpm torque, long-stroke ride with good body-control. You just don't get that balance in most cars.

Talking about the Impreza and Evo are a bit of an apples and watermelons comparison. Bear in mind the E30 was just a normal production saloon car, not a specialist sports/rally machine. Compare the E30 to a Vectra, a Passat, an S40 and overall I believe it is a better car.

Even in the specialist sports world the E30 fares well. Sure, a Honda S2000 has more power (especially in the top-end) but the steering is pretty lifeless in terms of feedback and the low-RPM torque isn't great. A Clio 197 has a really high lateral grip-limit, but the ride is very harsh. The current Civic Type-R has even worse ride, really poor throttle-control, and doesn't even have the grip-levels of the Clio.

If you want to find a car with the all-round balance of high-quality attributes of an E30 these days you have to look to really stand-out cars. The Focus ST Mk2 and the W211 Mercedes E-Class are ones that come close in my mind.

Clearly the E30 isn't a "beats all" vehicle, but considering it was designed in the late 70s it's still pretty impressive.

The general improvements since the 80s in car design have been enormous, but they have perhaps introduced compromises that will be particularly keenly felt by those who admire cars such as e30s. The thing to remember also when talking e30s is that, truly in my experience, no two examples feel exactly the same in driving experience anyway - it all depends on the use and maintenance of myriad components, not just the obvious things that any enthusiast would ensure are in fine fettle. My 75k 320i really does feel as tight as a drum in all its primary, secondary and ancillary controls, presumably due to its light use and faintly ridiculous history of maintenance, though I think it is testament to the quality of the e30's design and build that it can feel this way after 20 years - an 80s Ford will never be the same again without a 'trigger's broom' rebuild, and they were cack to start with.

In general though, the game has moved on. The quality of interior materials in comparable newer cars is massively improved, and impact protection is miles and miles better. Newer cars are generally more fuel efficient and refined too. The major thing is the difference in design philosophy these days - family cars used to be 3-box, 4-door saloons, or maybe an estate if you had a dog - e30s broadly fit in to this category, despite the latter day clamour for 2-doors. These days, the added utility of many of the Scenic/picasso sized and larger MPVs is so much better as to be revolutionary - just having a flat load floor is an enormous advance in amenity for a one-car family, and this is just one small area of many in which the 'product design' of cars in general has moved on so far as could be termed revolutionary. Apart from a few facets of the driving experience dulled by this change of emphasis, cars in general are now streets ahead.

Having said that, cars now are increasingly disposable items - think of Kia with its 7 year warranties, basically a whole life warranty if truth be told. This is reflected in the quality of their manufacture, although this is probably invisible to non-enthusiasts who are simply blinded by the array of tactile surfaces hiding covering the 'built to a cost' mechanicals, electricals and metalwork. I don't believe BMW are any different in following this general downgrading of quality, although like most of the German manufacturers, they started from a higher base. I'm reminded of Mercedes Benz's massive quality problems in the late 90s/early 00s - they simply tried to cut costs too quickly and found a false economy. The quality of other makes was also diminishing at the time, but not so far as to result in embarrassing and costly widespread failures.

The 80s was probably something of a peak in quality terms - until then, cars built for the masses generally weren't fit for purpose, ie as transport: a few trips up and down the unrestricted M1 would have left them wheezing wrecks, a few winters would leave a pile of oxidisation where your car used to be, and starting your car on a cold morning would be a lottery. The advent of cheap electronic injection, improvements in lubricants and the wider use of rustproofing techniques meant that cars like the e30, for a brief period, exceeded their brief - the need to make a car that was well made in all its features was highly prioritised, as the benefit in showing a demonstrable advance over what came before in this area was paramount. Once cars in general became almost uniformly reliable, adequately powerful and perceptibly long-lasting, the emphasis was forced to shift to different areas - comfort, refinement, luxury, amenity; occasionally at the cost of quality and visceral appeal.

In my opinion, there's fun to be had in new cars, but it's in the bottom end of the market where things are still slightly over engineered. I can imagine myself having enormous fun in an aygo for example - think of it as a modern Mini. Not quite so inspiring to drive maybe, but it can be thrashed and abused at all times without going pop or rusting away before your very eyes, all for a price that has very little margin added by its maker. They're probably pretty quick compared to the poverty cars of yesteryear too - 957cc Fiesta anyone? Bloody good value really.

The facelift Focus ST is a good car, a standout car infact, but quality of the ride just isn't there...

Its far to "twitchy" and the back end likes to come out to play during hard driving and if that happens at speed in one of them, your gonna do a 180 and crash...
Flooring it, turbo lag is almost gone, but again it shakes its way up the speedo with left-right twitches. By all means, great car and fun to drive, but I really dont like the feel of fast FWD cars. Although, the old "bite-your-head-off" turbos without front LSDs where amusing... instand left or right death torque steer proves quite fun in a strange way to a petrol head!
I would consider one if one ever pops up in jersey for a very reasonable price, but they are rare over here as most people bought them new and wont sell yet due to the depreciation rate!

I'm yet to get into any mercedes. Looking forward to it, but most of the "affordable" mercs (newer ones) to me, look like womans cars.

Also, dieing for the day I get my hands into a porshe 911 to see what all the fuss is about

Going to do a track day in the UK probably next year. Drive for 6 laps in each of these: Porshe Carrera 911 (as much as I know), Lambourghini Gilardo and Murciealargo (spelling... ), Aston Martin DB9, Ferrari 360 Spider and a Lotus Elise. Also something mad in a Polo 1.4!

Then off to the classic track day to drive a Jaguar E-Type, Rebuilt (to as close to original as possible) '67 Cobra and an Aston Martin DB 4 or 5 (cant remember which)!

At 21, that will be a nice mix of cars to say you've driven!

i've driven a Boxter-S that was tuned up so much is was like a jinkie on cold turkey.

Suprized it's not been mentioned but a Mini Works Cooper S is a mighty little car. Even the normal Cooper S have a heck of grunt about them. Back when I had my cab I got destroyed on the A34 by one of them. No arguing the chassis is spot on , they have good power and are loads of fun to drive too!

The Mk2 Cooper S turbo engine is hands-down one of the best engines < 2L on sale today. Possibly ever. Such a great midrange, smooth and flexible. The handling is excellent on smooth surfaces and on the smaller wheels - really quick rack, some good feedback for a modern car, decent steering efforts. My downsides for it are the ride is quite busy and harsh on the larger wheels (but actually the quality of the damping and body control is still quite good), and on a bumpy surface it torque-steers and bump-steers like a b:cens:tard. Can be really evil, especially when you're hard on it on-boost mid-corner.

There's other minor things like the audio unit in the Mk2 is really difficult to use, it generates rattles and squeaks really easily, and the Mk2 doesn't sound as good as the Mk1.

But yes, a really really good car.

Sorry, as an aside to that, has anyone heard of modern engine conversions into an E30? My top choices would be :

• Mini Cooper S Mk2 1.6L Turbo (same engine as Peugeot 207 GT and GTi)
  Audi TT 1.8T
  Golf 2.0T GTi
  Volvo/Focus ST T5 2.5 5-cyl turbo
  E90 320d
  E90 335i

With the exception of the last two, they're all FWD, so you've got the tricky prospect of finding a RWD box to fit. For the last 2 I don't even know if they'd fit in the engine bay, as they're big modern engines. For all of them you've got the issues of modern engines being tied to the BCM.

At the end of the day bmw's of the e30 era were built to last forever, the newer ones i think arent as durable and need more attention. Ive had 2 e36 328i's and a e39 540i and they are so much more soft, mechanicly good but dont feel as well put together as the e30 & e34's inmo the two best series of bmw ever

deary me not again. once a month the old "e30's must surely be better than anything before or since" thread gets started again.

the e30 is arguably one of the best efforts from the 80's but lets not delude ourselves its better than anything since, certainly not anything by BMW.

I'm more talking about the feel. Read my posts again. I'm not saying they're "better" but they are built well and feel like they're made to live on. They have this feel to them that no other car can replicate.

Newer cars feel like they are just "products". Tat your marketed into buying. The E30 to me feels like a true drivers car. Made to be driven and driven and fixed and driven again.

The balance, handling, controlability, point of veiw from the drivers seat... everything is just right. Newer cars seem like they are built to be disposable and bio-degrade into heaps of poop. I can't see even cars like Aston Martin DB9's or Audi's or BMW's latest models lasting 20-25 years and still being ecomonically viable forms of entertaining transport.

They just... wont exist. To complex, to much crap and so on ruins the essence of a car a petrol head is attracted to. A '67 Mustang GT500 40 odd years on is still a car that tops the list of many petrol heads most wanted... will the new one be thought of like that in 40 years? Doubt there will be any left... even if the petrol doesn't dry out by then

E30's certainly get more looks than newer cars, and actaully make the driving experince much more fun.

As for being quality wise, newer BMWs are just shit, Audis are shit.
The only company that makes me want a newer everyday car has gotta be Mercedes Benz.

Most of the mass market stuff I have had other than E30's has felt disposable in comparison to how well BMW used to put cars together.

I have had a brand new Astra Sporthatch 1.7 CDTI which although it went and stopped very well and had bluetooth etc it felt so plasticky and cheap - designed to be obselete and thrown away within a few years.

New BMW's aren't perfect though - I had a brand new 320i as a courtesy car about 3 Years ago and thought the quality of the interior was awful - the grade of plastics used for the dashboard etc was only as good as Ford or Vauxhall - definately not the quality feel you would expect from a premium car manufacturer.

In terms of quality the only recent car I have had which came close to BMW was my Audi A4 - which I sold to get an E36

325isporttech1 wrote:At the end of the day bmw's of the e30 era were built to last forever, the newer ones i think arent as durable and need more attention. Ive had 2 e36 328i's and a e39 540i and they are so much more soft, mechanicly good but dont feel as well put together as the e30 & e34's inmo the two best series of bmw ever

+1.

The e30, e34 and e32 were the last ones that were built to last forever.

Most e30 owners on here will have had to do either brake pipes/rear beam bushes/lollipop bushes on their cars. This is likely to be for the first time in the car's life i.e at 20+ years old.

I know someone who works in an independant garage and they regularly get e46s failing MOTs on the above mentioned items.

Newer BMWs aren't over-engineered like they used to be.

Oh I dunno, E39s have a very good reputation too, my 530 Sport Touring is lovely

E30's and e34's were imo definitely a more reliable car than most newer cars. The interior doesn't fall to pieces for no reason which seems to be the case with any newer bmw/car that I have driven. The engines are as tough or tougher than anything newer and the coachwork is imo better than on most newer motors.
Also they can take a hell of a beating! Look at some of the sheds out there that have clearly been punished for their entire life and still manage to stay road legal (barely )

clearly all e30s now come with a free set of blinkers, but to suggest everything else ever made isn't as good is plain daft!

obviously there is going to be something that most people on here 'get' about e30s, which is why we're all still driving e30s and part of an e30 enthusiasts web forum. however, it's a good idea to remember that in the grand scheme of things were a pretty tiny motoring minority.

we seem to forget the thousands of e30s that have become parts donors, and the thousands of ex e30 owners who have no desire to ever own another one.

being an e30 enthusiast forum it's pretty obvious that our cars will be amongst the best maintained and most reliable of what e30s there are left, but you still see the same recurring faults appearing. how many regularly used e30s are on their original rear brakepipes? not many i expect. fair enough it's a common problem on older cars, but my e30 lines lasted exactly the same length of time as those on the other halfs mk2 golf. Headgaskets, failing viscous fans, cooling system problems, cracked heads, manual tappet adjustment (how very 1950s)

The e30 is a good allrounder, from a period when cars were modern enough to be reliable, yet not so complex that you need to be a rocket scientist to work on them. good old fasioned spanner and screwdriver stuff for the most part rather than plugging into a dealer only diagnostic machine. theyre comforatable and solid enough to use everyday whilst still giving good visibility and without numbing the driving experiance and over assisting everything.

my dad had an e30 316i in the early 90s, at the time he quite liked it, but when his 3 years were up he went back to alfa romeos as for him, a characterfull engine, good looks and quick, responsive steering were more important to him than retro looks and being able to get the back end out in the wet. to him the e30 is not the best car ever made of all time.

the e36 is a 'better' car in most measurable criteria. more space, more toys, more modern safety equipment, quicker steering, more rear end grip, quieter etc etc, unfortunately, as is the way with these things, for us they also tend to be less fun. if everyone here thought the e36 was better than the e30 then this place would be pretty bare. it's important to remember that everyone has different thoughts and opinions on what they find 'good' about a car, so it's pretty obvious that making a sweeping generalisation about the e30 being the best car ever is somewhat pointless.

I believe the point NayC was trying to make was about the subjective whole experience being better than a modern car, and to that point I agree with him.

My point is that the capacity, balance and quality of the E30 is impressive even against modern D-segment cars.

Yes, it is a sweeping generalisation, but I think in terms of subjective feel of the vehicle many people today would recognise the E30 is better than their current hatback/saloon.

Clearly the world has moved on in terms legal requirements in terms of safety and emsissions, and the customer expectations of things like quietness have changed. The E30, being built before these requirements couldn't be sold today because it doesn't meet them.

Simulatenously manufacters have improved objective measureable qualities (power, torque, MPG, 0-60, etc). But BMW are one of the best manufactuers at understanding that objective measurements don't make a good car.