Hi Guys.
This has been a long time coming, but I'm at crossroads on what to do. I had an exhaust manifold made for an engine conversion into an E30 by Fritz Bitz.
I am overseas and this was made in the UK. It cost about 750GBP and the product quality and workmanship was below average.
I had no idea what to expect but I found the ports were very messy, with nearly 1cm of material overhang past the gasket at areas, welds had silver spray paint all over them which I have never seen before, amongst other things dents and damage when I received them.
The main issue was the ports, to cut a long story short it's been nothing but draw backs with the seller. At first he had suggested I fix it myself which I did not accept. When sent back for repair, the first time they came back, the pipes had cracks in them everywhere, which they claim they did not notice, as the pipes are pushed through the flange then welded on the inside, rather than on the outside face.
The seller would often say it is not his responsibility to fix the Item and referred me to the manufacturer, which I know is not lawful in many countries.
With the sort of work I had seen, I thought the fabricators had no idea what they were doing, the seller also actually did not also see the Items himself, as the first time they were simply just sent from the manufacturer which I had thought is a pretty poor quality control.
So the manufacturer said the pipes will this time be welded on the outside face, and the headers are now ready and it appears they have not done that, once again they do not port match well and they say that trying to port match them will just cut through the pipes again.
I am at crossroads on what to do, the seller himself has admitted something has gone wrong with the manufacturer as they have been hiring a lot of new people lately and myself am not confident of the skills and capability of the people making the headers. It has been 7 Months coming from the time I paid.
I had simply let the seller know if he is not able to come up with a decent seat of headers to refund the money, they have been back twice so far and I am not confident they are well made as for less money I have seen better things come out of China.
I got no idea what I'm going to recieve back this time and how long these are even going to last given the workmanship in the past.
What do you guys recommend I do?
Problems with Fritz Bitz exhuast manifolds
Moderator: martauto
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aimlessrock
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the goods are clearly unfit for purpose, i would propose returning them and demanding a refund.
Im unsure when you purchased the goods but as of 1 October 2015 the Consumer Rights Act 2015 prevails. see the below link and in particular s9/10 and 11.. i would encourage you to read the whole of the sections.
If its before 1 October 2015 the act is different, but the tests are almost identical.
Consumer laws over here are very good.
Hope this helps.
Im unsure when you purchased the goods but as of 1 October 2015 the Consumer Rights Act 2015 prevails. see the below link and in particular s9/10 and 11.. i would encourage you to read the whole of the sections.
If its before 1 October 2015 the act is different, but the tests are almost identical.
Consumer laws over here are very good.
Hope this helps.
E30 320i Convertible (1989)
190 Mercedes (1988)
"there is nothing more expensive than a cheap E30"
190 Mercedes (1988)
"there is nothing more expensive than a cheap E30"
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aimlessrock
- E30 Zone Squatter
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E30 320i Convertible (1989)
190 Mercedes (1988)
"there is nothing more expensive than a cheap E30"
190 Mercedes (1988)
"there is nothing more expensive than a cheap E30"
It wasn't off here directly as in a for sale ad, but was recommended/mentioned on here.
It's for a S50B32 to an E30 conversion.
At first the ports were very bad, so I sent it back and they port matched it, but it came back with cracks/gaps in the pipes on every single cylinder, in which they responded there is no way that could have happened claiming they even checked it.
They said the pipes would be welded on the outside of the flange in order to avoid any issues like this, so currently it is with them and they sent me pictures and still the ports do not match, they are saying if they try to port match it that they will make holes in the pipes.
Added to this, the manifold has silver spray paint to cover the welds at the merge collector and silver spray paint at the flange tack welds, I am thinking this because they are using a mild steel filler on stainless that will eventually rust and look real bad. I have never seen this done on a manifold before.
I'm unsure if this is OK or acceptable given the price so which was why I was asking of some opinions and what to do.
My suggestion was to avoid any issues with port matching or grinding through pipes, weld the pipes on the outside of the flange, rather than pushing them all the way through the flange and welding them at the cylinder head side. As the seller had constantly tried to refer me to the manufacturer rather than dealing with me himself, the manufacturer did say they will be welded on the outside, but it doesn't appear this has been done as they are saying they can't port match them as they will grind through the pipes if they keep going, so the ports still do not match the gasket shape.
I'm unsure if they have a welder or skills capable of doing it this way and making it neat which is why they just push the pipes through the flange and weld it on the inside.
Thanks.
It's for a S50B32 to an E30 conversion.
At first the ports were very bad, so I sent it back and they port matched it, but it came back with cracks/gaps in the pipes on every single cylinder, in which they responded there is no way that could have happened claiming they even checked it.
They said the pipes would be welded on the outside of the flange in order to avoid any issues like this, so currently it is with them and they sent me pictures and still the ports do not match, they are saying if they try to port match it that they will make holes in the pipes.
Added to this, the manifold has silver spray paint to cover the welds at the merge collector and silver spray paint at the flange tack welds, I am thinking this because they are using a mild steel filler on stainless that will eventually rust and look real bad. I have never seen this done on a manifold before.
I'm unsure if this is OK or acceptable given the price so which was why I was asking of some opinions and what to do.
My suggestion was to avoid any issues with port matching or grinding through pipes, weld the pipes on the outside of the flange, rather than pushing them all the way through the flange and welding them at the cylinder head side. As the seller had constantly tried to refer me to the manufacturer rather than dealing with me himself, the manufacturer did say they will be welded on the outside, but it doesn't appear this has been done as they are saying they can't port match them as they will grind through the pipes if they keep going, so the ports still do not match the gasket shape.
I'm unsure if they have a welder or skills capable of doing it this way and making it neat which is why they just push the pipes through the flange and weld it on the inside.
Thanks.
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kam-325i
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If they are using mild steel filler wire on stainless, the welds will crack.....
Pete don't care about colour, He would shag a rainbow if he could find the end of it....
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ross_jsy
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Since he said it was about £750 and BTB are a lot more we can rule them out. Ergen don't seem to offer an s50 manifold, thought they did and a Fritz Bitz is £750. Deduce from that what you will.
Sambe30, out of the 2, I would always pick BTB. They keep the design very close to the originals and have been proven not to lose any power
Sambe30, out of the 2, I would always pick BTB. They keep the design very close to the originals and have been proven not to lose any power
I'd like to not name anyone for the moment if it's not going to help.
Here is how most of the ports look at the moment, manifolds still with supplier waiting to be sent.
Given the workmanship issues I've had before, I really do not know what to expect in terms of quality and longevity aswell.
As for the welds I'm unsure, as I have no idea why there is a need to spray paint over welds on stainless steel manifolds around the merge collector and at the flanges unless the filler is mild steel. So I'm really unsure if I should accept this manifold or ask for a refund and for them to keep the manifold and resell it to somebody else.
Here is how most of the ports look at the moment, manifolds still with supplier waiting to be sent.
Given the workmanship issues I've had before, I really do not know what to expect in terms of quality and longevity aswell.
As for the welds I'm unsure, as I have no idea why there is a need to spray paint over welds on stainless steel manifolds around the merge collector and at the flanges unless the filler is mild steel. So I'm really unsure if I should accept this manifold or ask for a refund and for them to keep the manifold and resell it to somebody else.
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DanThe
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Looks like a Fritz to me from the pic. TBH I've never checked the port sizes as I've only ever fitted them to M52 engines where the head ports are smaller, so not important.
I had a few issues with the joints on the last one, its a shame because they work really well, just a few easily sorted problems is all it takes for them to be right.
If it were me with your problems id tell them I want my money back
I had a few issues with the joints on the last one, its a shame because they work really well, just a few easily sorted problems is all it takes for them to be right.
If it were me with your problems id tell them I want my money back
Hi.
Well after 3 attempts to manufacture an exhaust manifold, the end result is poor and tacky looking, especially for a £750 Manifold from Fritz Bitz. I would have been totally fine of these results for a fraction of the price, but not for 750 big ones and also customs fee's I paid whenever I recieved the Item back when they had to rework it.
They did not fix the issue of the ports not matching even though the manufacturer said the 3rd time round they will weld the pipes on the outside flange - still the same corner-cutting excercise welding the pipes on the inside flange.
After recieving an Item back which had visible cracks in every cylinder, some multiple cracks per pipe, he was in denail, claimed he checked it and did not see anything.
But really it is the overall product that is a let down - Mind you all of the below is after the 3RD TIME their 3rd attempt at making an exhaust manifold
- Flange face is extremely uneven, even after specifically asking for this to be checked.
- Weld splatter everywhere, can see mig welding rod sticking out of one of the welds
- Black residue all over the welds, it appears first they used spray paint to try cover up all of this which was seen to be flaking off anyway
- Messy looking flange face with all sorts of pits and burrs inside and out.
- Each runner seems to be made of all sorts of different grade materials - magnet sticks to some segments of a runner, and then doesn't stick to other segments.
Basically for the price, rough job.
Fritz do not manufacture their own manifolds but sub contract to another company then when there is a problem instructed me that they have no responsibility time after time, to quote "it is out of my hands" and suggest customers deal with the manufacturer.
After running around to different shops getting quotes to fix their headers up and getting back to them, I was accused of trying to make profit.
Richard himself has admitted that his manufacturer has been hiring a lot of new staff recently and that something "Clearly has gone west"
This whole proccess has been almost a year long and still with a tacky looking product. I have tried to give Rich the benefit of the doubt and allow him time to set things right but he has not, so it's in the best interest of our E30 community to understand this.
After for the price, seeing what sort of service and product I get, I would 100% go for BTB as from what i've seen their stuff is spot on even if it does cost more. Otherwise just get your original manifold modified to clear.
Because of the incompetence of these people and poor customer service, I am now down 750gbp but ontop of that have wasted almost a year of my time.
Well after 3 attempts to manufacture an exhaust manifold, the end result is poor and tacky looking, especially for a £750 Manifold from Fritz Bitz. I would have been totally fine of these results for a fraction of the price, but not for 750 big ones and also customs fee's I paid whenever I recieved the Item back when they had to rework it.
They did not fix the issue of the ports not matching even though the manufacturer said the 3rd time round they will weld the pipes on the outside flange - still the same corner-cutting excercise welding the pipes on the inside flange.
After recieving an Item back which had visible cracks in every cylinder, some multiple cracks per pipe, he was in denail, claimed he checked it and did not see anything.
But really it is the overall product that is a let down - Mind you all of the below is after the 3RD TIME their 3rd attempt at making an exhaust manifold
- Flange face is extremely uneven, even after specifically asking for this to be checked.
- Weld splatter everywhere, can see mig welding rod sticking out of one of the welds
- Black residue all over the welds, it appears first they used spray paint to try cover up all of this which was seen to be flaking off anyway
- Messy looking flange face with all sorts of pits and burrs inside and out.
- Each runner seems to be made of all sorts of different grade materials - magnet sticks to some segments of a runner, and then doesn't stick to other segments.
Basically for the price, rough job.
Fritz do not manufacture their own manifolds but sub contract to another company then when there is a problem instructed me that they have no responsibility time after time, to quote "it is out of my hands" and suggest customers deal with the manufacturer.
After running around to different shops getting quotes to fix their headers up and getting back to them, I was accused of trying to make profit.
Richard himself has admitted that his manufacturer has been hiring a lot of new staff recently and that something "Clearly has gone west"
This whole proccess has been almost a year long and still with a tacky looking product. I have tried to give Rich the benefit of the doubt and allow him time to set things right but he has not, so it's in the best interest of our E30 community to understand this.
After for the price, seeing what sort of service and product I get, I would 100% go for BTB as from what i've seen their stuff is spot on even if it does cost more. Otherwise just get your original manifold modified to clear.
Because of the incompetence of these people and poor customer service, I am now down 750gbp but ontop of that have wasted almost a year of my time.
Last edited by Z2TT on Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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steve_k
- E30 Zone Team Member
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i'm quite surprised by the response & service you got from them 
both myself & a good friend of mine have both bought manifolds from them before & had no problems at all,
i only bought an m20 manifold a while back before i found my genuine magnex manifold & that was spot on.
as for my mate, he bought the same manifold as you have got & had no problems with it, though this was a few years ago so could've been before they changed makers,
IIRC (could be wrong) their manifolds are/were made by a firm called RGM, & i've seen all sorts of stories regarding parts made by them, some good some bad.
thats just my experience with fritz & i'm sorry i cannot offer any advise on which route to go to rectify your problem/concerns.
all i can say is good luck & keep us posted on what happens.
both myself & a good friend of mine have both bought manifolds from them before & had no problems at all,
i only bought an m20 manifold a while back before i found my genuine magnex manifold & that was spot on.
as for my mate, he bought the same manifold as you have got & had no problems with it, though this was a few years ago so could've been before they changed makers,
IIRC (could be wrong) their manifolds are/were made by a firm called RGM, & i've seen all sorts of stories regarding parts made by them, some good some bad.
thats just my experience with fritz & i'm sorry i cannot offer any advise on which route to go to rectify your problem/concerns.
all i can say is good luck & keep us posted on what happens.
if it's got t*ts or wheels it's bound to be trouble...............prove me wrong.
getting oral sex off an ugly person is like rock climbing.....don't look down ;)
getting oral sex off an ugly person is like rock climbing.....don't look down ;)
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DanThe
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So why can't you have a refund?
Im not sticking up for fritz here at all but in the grand scheme of things £750 is a cheap branch manifold, ask any exhaust shop for a quote and you will soon see that is the case.
BTB manifold is £1200, and thats to modify a supplied BMW S50 manifold, not make a new one.
Big difference in price and start/end product, and therefore they cannot even be compared in terms of quality IMO.
If I was fritz bits I would have apologised and offered your money back from the start
Im not sticking up for fritz here at all but in the grand scheme of things £750 is a cheap branch manifold, ask any exhaust shop for a quote and you will soon see that is the case.
BTB manifold is £1200, and thats to modify a supplied BMW S50 manifold, not make a new one.
Big difference in price and start/end product, and therefore they cannot even be compared in terms of quality IMO.
If I was fritz bits I would have apologised and offered your money back from the start
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steve_k
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totally agree, £750 for a 6 branch is pocket money,DanThe wrote:So why can't you have a refund?
Im not sticking up for fritz here at all but in the grand scheme of things £750 is a cheap branch manifold, ask any exhaust shop for a quote and you will soon see that is the case.
BTB manifold is £1200, and thats to modify a supplied BMW S50 manifold, not make a new one.
Big difference in price and start/end product, and therefore they cannot even be compared in terms of quality IMO.
If I was fritz bits I would have apologised and offered your money back from the start
i got a quote from a place in chesterfield for a copy of an M20 RD manifold & it ranged form £1600+vat to £2200+vat depending on the grade of stainless steel & none of that included fitting (which you would expect)
as dan says above you should be entitled to a full refund.
if it's got t*ts or wheels it's bound to be trouble...............prove me wrong.
getting oral sex off an ugly person is like rock climbing.....don't look down ;)
getting oral sex off an ugly person is like rock climbing.....don't look down ;)
Guys, what I'm saying is for any substantial money - the results I have gotten are fairly poor.
Both Fritz and BTB prices while do differ somewhat are still a substantial amount of money and comparing how a BTB manifold looks to the Fritz one I'm looking at right now, is day and night difference - that is the point I'm trying to get at.
Let's put the comparison another way, Chinese manifolds end up looking way better than what I've recieved which are half or quarter of the price. The Fritz manifold I have here which is worth Zero dollars as it's not even fit to be placed on a car with a face that is not flat, I'm not confident I will be able to get a proper seal.
As the welds are on the inside of the flanges, getting this flange machined out of my own money I have no idea what that will do once it begins working into his welds, it's not just a minor inconsistency, it's way off.
My point is simply that if even if it does take a decent amount of time to fabricate headers, when you're charging that sort of money, you got to provide something that is upto scratch otherwise not do it at all. I can understand a few things that might be off which is fine as you get what you pay for, but not to the extent of issues I've had.
When I had taken these headers to a place to get them reworked, they looked at them and said they simply wouldn't touch them.
Now with new problems - I will be taking these headers to a shop to see if it's possible to rework them so they can be useable, all out of my pocket and time.
Edit - By the way the manufacturer he made me deal with directly after saying it was out of his hands and not his problem was not RGM, it is another manufacturer so yes I guess they have changed makers.
Both Fritz and BTB prices while do differ somewhat are still a substantial amount of money and comparing how a BTB manifold looks to the Fritz one I'm looking at right now, is day and night difference - that is the point I'm trying to get at.
Let's put the comparison another way, Chinese manifolds end up looking way better than what I've recieved which are half or quarter of the price. The Fritz manifold I have here which is worth Zero dollars as it's not even fit to be placed on a car with a face that is not flat, I'm not confident I will be able to get a proper seal.
As the welds are on the inside of the flanges, getting this flange machined out of my own money I have no idea what that will do once it begins working into his welds, it's not just a minor inconsistency, it's way off.
My point is simply that if even if it does take a decent amount of time to fabricate headers, when you're charging that sort of money, you got to provide something that is upto scratch otherwise not do it at all. I can understand a few things that might be off which is fine as you get what you pay for, but not to the extent of issues I've had.
When I had taken these headers to a place to get them reworked, they looked at them and said they simply wouldn't touch them.
Now with new problems - I will be taking these headers to a shop to see if it's possible to rework them so they can be useable, all out of my pocket and time.
Edit - By the way the manufacturer he made me deal with directly after saying it was out of his hands and not his problem was not RGM, it is another manufacturer so yes I guess they have changed makers.
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DanThe
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See my post on the previous page, they are totally different! BTB manifolds are made by BMW, BTB will adapt a supplied one for £1200Z2TT wrote:
comparing how a BTB manifold looks to the Fritz one I'm looking at right now, is day and night difference - that is the point I'm trying to get at.
Fritz are made from all new materials for £750
Are you suggesting you expected a similar level of quality? Really??
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pacerpete
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DanThe wrote:See my post on the previous page, they are totally different! BTB manifolds are made by BMW, BTB will adapt a supplied one for £1200Z2TT wrote:
comparing how a BTB manifold looks to the Fritz one I'm looking at right now, is day and night difference - that is the point I'm trying to get at.
Fritz are made from all new materials for £750
Are you suggesting you expected a similar level of quality? Really??
I am sure he would be very happy if it fitted correctly and worked , which at £750 he has every right to !
I did demand a refund, but Rich (Fritz) said that the warranty lies with the manufacturer (who Fritz subcontracts his work to) and not himself, even though the money went directly into Fritz account and all communication before the sale was with Fritz and nobody else.
So after further talks, they told me they would re-imburse the cost of the work required to fix the headers up, I went driving around to get multiple quotes and a firm idea of how they could be reworked properly, then after letting Fritz and his manufacturer know, they accused me of trying to make profit.
After further talks, they said they would fix them up themselves so I took them up on the offer, this is where the nightmare began.
So they went back to the UK, and when they came back covered in swarf and dust as they had not even cleaned it up after rework - I noticed the pipes had cracks everywhere on the inside - which the manufacturer said, that both him and Rich checked them personally and there is no way that could have happened. The metal was as thin as a coke can you could move it around with your fingernails - I have pictures of all these cracks and other stuff. I'm unsure who these guys employ to do their fabrication as it seems they have no idea about basic metalworking which applies to most trades, meaning you can't be putting any price tag on their work. If I had fitted the headers like they were, they would probably have severely warped down the track.
Again he now made me speak with the manufacturer as it he believed it is not his responsibility.
So after the 3rd attempt at making something, they appear to have laid welds over the cracks and very thin metal and sanded it down.
The flange is still uneven and with the amount of material that needs to be taken off the ports will look horrible again, and as the tube is pushed all the way through the flange, facing might also disturb the pipe and welds.
So it's not a matter of me unreasonably nitpicking an average set of headers, it's things that are very noticeably wrong.
So after further talks, they told me they would re-imburse the cost of the work required to fix the headers up, I went driving around to get multiple quotes and a firm idea of how they could be reworked properly, then after letting Fritz and his manufacturer know, they accused me of trying to make profit.
After further talks, they said they would fix them up themselves so I took them up on the offer, this is where the nightmare began.
So they went back to the UK, and when they came back covered in swarf and dust as they had not even cleaned it up after rework - I noticed the pipes had cracks everywhere on the inside - which the manufacturer said, that both him and Rich checked them personally and there is no way that could have happened. The metal was as thin as a coke can you could move it around with your fingernails - I have pictures of all these cracks and other stuff. I'm unsure who these guys employ to do their fabrication as it seems they have no idea about basic metalworking which applies to most trades, meaning you can't be putting any price tag on their work. If I had fitted the headers like they were, they would probably have severely warped down the track.
Again he now made me speak with the manufacturer as it he believed it is not his responsibility.
So after the 3rd attempt at making something, they appear to have laid welds over the cracks and very thin metal and sanded it down.
The flange is still uneven and with the amount of material that needs to be taken off the ports will look horrible again, and as the tube is pushed all the way through the flange, facing might also disturb the pipe and welds.
So it's not a matter of me unreasonably nitpicking an average set of headers, it's things that are very noticeably wrong.
Last edited by Z2TT on Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Brianmoooore
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Liability for the product is 100% the responsibility of Fritz Bits, as they well know. The manufacturer has no liability to you whatsoever, as no contract exists between you.Z2TT wrote: Again he now made me speak with the manufacturer as it he believed it is not his responsibility.
Do not, under any circumstances, attempt any reworking of the manifold yourself, or let any third party do so.
Return the manifold to Fritz Bits, and ask for your money back.
If this produces no results, ask for your money back, plus reasonable expenses, accompanied by a solicitor's letter.
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pacerpete
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Brianmoooore wrote:Liability for the product is 100% the responsibility of Fritz Bits, as they well know. The manufacturer has no liability to you whatsoever, as no contract exists between you.Z2TT wrote: Again he now made me speak with the manufacturer as it he believed it is not his responsibility.
Do not, under any circumstances, attempt any reworking of the manifold yourself, or let any third party do so.
Return the manifold to Fritz Bits, and ask for your money back.
If this produces no results, ask for your money back, plus reasonable expenses, accompanied by a solicitor's letter.
THIS !