5 LUG setup

[jasso]

I have the e36 m3 evo front setup and yes the wheel does not sit sit central of the wheel well, after speaking to a engineering firm they are saying that they can produce a sleeve adaptor to accomodate the 5 lug hub then will need to fabricate an adaptor for the calipers and more or less bingo. the engineering firm have said they can make the sleeve either that it needs to be pressed on or so it needs to be sweated on (heated up so it expands drop it over the spindle and as it cools it grips the hell of the spindle)

Was wondering how many people, if any would be intrested?

[Laith]

Does this mean you can fit a 5 lug hub onto the standard e30 suspension?

[jasso]

Yes

[Laith]

Then yes I would be interested price dependent. (Just paid for a respray )

[jasso]

im gonna go and see them later this week, will keep you guys updated

[HairyScreech]

This one has been round and round so many times, If you want to see the full detail of what's involved search out a thread I made a few months back. It is much more involved than just a spacer once you start considering the other important aspects of the conversion.
Disc offset/clashing with the ball joint is a problem unless you want to have custom discs, Hub nut locking and bearing retention is CRITICAL and something that is a bit questionable on some jobs people have done.

For what it's worth, Tom Cresswell on here currently has all of my info as is looking to produce some kind of solution based on that info. Might be worth getting in touch with him first.

Sefetly/reliability wise the sleeve is fine, I have 4k miles on mine now including 4 hours solid at 70+.

For what it's worth, my take was that it was better to have a press fit into the bearing cup (they can be removed to press) and then the standard bearing fit onto the axle to keep the axle loaded in the correct/standard manner.

[Brianmoooore]

"Lug" is a verb, meaning to pull, or a slang term for an ear.
The things which hold wheels to hubs are studs or bolts!

[steve_k]

if/when i decide to go down the 5 stud conversion route instead of hunting out the m3 evo parts for the front i might just take the easy(cheap) option & buy an mot failure e36 compact & use the rear beam/trailing arms/hubs etc off the rear & front legs/hubs/bearings for the front, saves having to get custom parts made up.

[Motorhole]

if/when i decide to go down the 5 stud conversion route instead of hunting out the m3 evo parts for the front i might just take the easy(cheap) option & buy an mot failure e36 compact & use the rear beam/trailing arms/hubs etc off the rear & front legs/hubs/bearings for the front, saves having to get custom parts made up.

Front legs/hubs/bearings etc off the front of a compact won't centre the wheel in the arch - it will sit towards of the rear of the arch and rub on the arch liner/firewall. Which is why the e36 m3 evo parts are required as the (different from other E36s) lower wishbones, hub assembly and with E30 M3 eccentric bushes give you something close to acceptable geometry.

[steve_k]

if/when i decide to go down the 5 stud conversion route instead of hunting out the m3 evo parts for the front i might just take the easy(cheap) option & buy an mot failure e36 compact & use the rear beam/trailing arms/hubs etc off the rear & front legs/hubs/bearings for the front, saves having to get custom parts made up.

Front legs/hubs/bearings etc off the front of a compact won't centre the wheel in the arch - it will sit towards of the rear of the arch and rub on the arch liner/firewall. Which is why the e36 m3 evo parts are required as the (different from other E36s) lower wishbones, hub assembly and with E30 M3 eccentric bushes give you something close to acceptable geometry.

fair enough, i didn't know about that but at least it gives me a heads up, thanks

[jasso]

This one has been round and round so many times, If you want to see the full detail of what's involved search out a thread I made a few months back. It is much more involved than just a spacer once you start considering the other important aspects of the conversion.
Disc offset/clashing with the ball joint is a problem unless you want to have custom discs, Hub nut locking and bearing retention is CRITICAL and something that is a bit questionable on some jobs people have done.

Ok i will bear all of this in mind but to be fair i have 2 e28 wheel bearings/hubs which are not far off in height compared to the E30 one, so once the adaptor sleeve is made that will allow the hub to fit on the locking nut to fit and to be knotched with a chiesel just as they are on a stock E30 however if needed can adopt the split pin method, the next hurdle would be disc and calipers.

[jasso]

"Lug" is a verb, meaning to pull, or a slang term for an ear.
The things which hold wheels to hubs are studs or bolts!

My apologies stud.

[davelarge]

I've purchased a kit like you've described, I got it from a guy in Latvia that advertised on r3vlimited, will be fitting them soon, total cost was about £180 delivered.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=306268

[jasso]

Dave i saw that kit ages ago and didnt like the way the bolt has to go through the end but i understand why he has done that in order to space out the hub.

[HairyScreech]

This one has been round and round so many times, If you want to see the full detail of what's involved search out a thread I made a few months back. It is much more involved than just a spacer once you start considering the other important aspects of the conversion.
Disc offset/clashing with the ball joint is a problem unless you want to have custom discs, Hub nut locking and bearing retention is CRITICAL and something that is a bit questionable on some jobs people have done.

Ok i will bear all of this in mind but to be fair i have 2 e28 wheel bearings/hubs which are not far off in height compared to the E30 one, so once the adaptor sleeve is made that will allow the hub to fit on the locking nut to fit and to be knotched with a chiesel just as they are on a stock E30 however if needed can adopt the split pin method, the next hurdle would be disc and calipers.

Are the E28 bearings the same width as the E36/46/34/32 etc bearings?
If so they are about 6mm wider, which is enough to mean you only have about 3 turns of thread holding the bearing on, a standard lock nut is then too long to pinch over properly and does not really contact enough thread.
To make it worse the E30 lock nut is not big enough to hold the bearing on properly due to the larger inner diameter of the 5 stud bearing (37mm bearing inner).

Yes the offest comes out about the same as an E30, but all the 5 stud BMW disc have deeper "top hats" than E30 4 stud discs.
This means either aftermarket disc or you have the issue of the disc being too deep for the hub and contacting the lower wishbone joint.

With that said, using stock e30 front callipers and Z3 rear calipers combined with 300mm front and 270mm rears the brake bias is within a couple of percent of the standard bais.

One further thing to think about is that the front offset is wrong and actually results in a 10mm narrower front track with Et41 wheels.
Throw in lowering and the associated roll centre issue and I have to question if this route is worthwhile as a performance upgrade.

If you are only after looks then fine and the performance you will get is still much better than stock e30 bits, but considering the pain involved probably not worth it.

Personally I am looking at converting some other struts to take E30 style lower joints, this will give me control of the castor and roll centre, allowing correct front geometry in a manner similar to the M3 but at much less cost and with greater stiffness.

[nickso]

E28 wheel bearings are the same as E30 M3 wheel bearings Except for the ABS ring I think. Pretty sure that's whats on mine.

[jasso]

Just come across these



Think it may be easier to get these and centralise my existing setup??? or have some made up with a sliding mechanism which will allow full adjustability of the the bush.

[Motorhole]

Just come across these



Think it may be easier to get these and centralise my existing setup??? or have some made up with a sliding mechanism which will allow full adjustability of the the bush.

These will allow adjustment of castor but I doubt there will be enough adjustment to move the wheel forward enough. I'd imagine it would have to move forward a good 40-50 mm if using standard E36 gubbins. To do that, the control arm would pretty much have to be inside the chassis rail!

These, combined with E36 M3 Evo control arms would improve matters but you may still end up parting with cash and not be happy with the result.

[jasso]

I was thinking that to so i designed something that could be worth bulk producing.



fig represent:
1 = 2 bolts that go into the chasis leg and sit flush
2 = 2 bolts that will be used to adjust the block that will have the spherical bush in there
3 = the spherical bush
4 = were fig 2 bolts will drive the adjustment


Sorry for the rough illustration but im at work with managers close by lol But you should get the picture the solid block with the spherical bush will slide in the piece that would be bolted in the chassis leg.

[martinpallot]

The idea above would mean the rear end of the wishbone would be lower than the front which is undesirable as it causes odd changes in dynamic castor resulting in funny handling. With evo wishbones and hubs and eccentric bushes you shouldn't have any issues with un-centered wheels

[jasso]

really and truely i just want the wheel to sit central in the wheel well and 5 stud, think sleeving the e30 stub similar to the latvian guy is the way forward.

[Motorhole]

Truly, unless using the E36 M3 Evo stuff for the big brakes (which come with their own issues too, btw! I know, I've been through it and spent the time & money resolving it), the 5-stud swap isn't worth it. Custom spacers etc don't guarantee fitment as you need to find brake discs and wheels with the correct offset and get caliper brackets made up. Often the safety of some setups is debatable too.

If you can't wait for the solutions form the likes of Tom Cresswell and Hairyscreech (who know what they're doing), there is a full, correct E36 setup in the for sale section now at £600. That would prove the most hassle free solution. Also Driftnething has an E30 M3 setup on Ebay now - although that will likely be around £1k+ and will require lower offset wheels than E36/E46 type wheels - or hubcentric spacers.

[Demlotcrew]

Best/value for money solution is to redrill bearings/flanges to 5x100 and then use PCD adaptors to 5x120.

You have the widest choice of wheels with this combo and no issues with needing new brake solutions.

[HairyScreech]

Just come across these



Think it may be easier to get these and centralise my existing setup??? or have some made up with a sliding mechanism which will allow full adjustability of the the bush.

These will allow adjustment of castor but I doubt there will be enough adjustment to move the wheel forward enough. I'd imagine it would have to move forward a good 40-50 mm if using standard E36 gubbins. To do that, the control arm would pretty much have to be inside the chassis rail!

These, combined with E36 M3 Evo control arms would improve matters but you may still end up parting with cash and not be happy with the result.

As Nick said, the back wishbone mount needs to move out, it has been done with modified treehouse bearings, but the chassis leg needs to be dented back to allow the eyelet across enough.

We were looking at using E46 stuff recently as it already has similar caster to the e36m3 legs when fitted to the e30, (Gunni test fitted some but it was never developed).
It would seem the normal e46 stuff with E30 wishbones and eccentric bushes may be closer to the right geometry than the E36 setup.
If someone has a shell to test fit on then it might be worth a try, the only reason I have not tried it out is the E30 is my daily atm until I pick up a Z3.

Edit- As Motorhole and Demlot have said, currently the best way is to either:
1. Use e30 M3 legs
2. Use E36 M3 Evo parts
3. Have a hub drilled to 5x100 and use a 5x100 to 5x120 adaptor, not sure what discs though.
4. Use some of the tried and tested 4x100 to 5x120 adaptors
5. Wait until Tom decides how he is going to go about machining his hub.

Personally I don't think my way of doing it is very practical, it works and it works well, but it needs a lot of parts with fine tolerances and still leaves you with the limitations of the stock E30 front suspension.
The same can be said for all other sleeve set ups.

[Demlotcrew]

Gunni......now theres a name I've not heard in a while.

Fitting E36/E46 hardware is a complete waste of time (unless its for cosmetic/drift reasons) as on track its been proven time and time again, the stock uprights and M3 geo is far superior (scrub radius, unsprung weight, roll centre and castor for example) plus any gains of response of quicker racks is completely negated with the later hub pivot radius.

My advice, try and make it work with E30 struts on the front.

[HairyScreech]

Here is the thread where the E46 stuff was first tried. With some more development time and a bit more measurement/calculation I looks to have some legs (pardon the pun).

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89366

[SCOTT325SE]

if/when i decide to go down the 5 stud conversion route instead of hunting out the m3 evo parts for the front

Hunt no further.... You can find them for sale here....
(Totally connected to seller)

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=261585

there is a full, correct E36 setup in the for sale section now at £600. That would prove the most hassle free solution.

Hello again

[jasso]

First pic shows the e30 nut hand tightened with the e28 hub, second pic shows the space from the ball joint knuckle. The nut I'm thinking to use some sort of split pin solution and a 6mm spacer between the hub face and disc.

[Demlotcrew]

How will you centre the disk on the hub with a 6mm spacer?

[steve_k]

if/when i decide to go down the 5 stud conversion route instead of hunting out the m3 evo parts for the front

Hunt no further.... You can find them for sale here....
(Totally connected to seller)

http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=261585

there is a full, correct E36 setup in the for sale section now at £600. That would prove the most hassle free solution.

Hello again

nice plug scott, but it won't be for a while yet lol.

[rob0r]

I've purchased a kit like you've described, I got it from a guy in Latvia that advertised on r3vlimited, will be fitting them soon, total cost was about £180 delivered.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=306268

This kit does seem like it's been tested a fair amount for two years with no negative information yet. I can see why people have doubts but is a kit like this such a bad idea?

I like the 5 x 100 idea but you'd end up bolting up at least 20mm worth of spacer to each side.

[HairyScreech]

I've purchased a kit like you've described, I got it from a guy in Latvia that advertised on r3vlimited, will be fitting them soon, total cost was about £180 delivered.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=306268

This kit does seem like it's been tested a fair amount for two years with no negative information yet. I can see why people have doubts but is a kit like this such a bad idea?

I like the 5 x 100 idea but you'd end up bolting up at least 20mm worth of spacer to each side.

You do if you use an e36/46 hub as well.

Robor - It is worth attaching an old wishbone and Tie rod to that leg, The wishbone is massive around the ball joint, it was only when I did that I spotted the issue.

Where in the country are you? I have a spare arm kicking about and you could have a look at my set up if you want.

[jasso]

How will you centre the disk on the hub with a 6mm spacer?

6mm spacer hubcentric if needed with a hole allowing you to bolt through the disc spacer into the hub.

[HairyScreech]

How will you centre the disk on the hub with a 6mm spacer?

6mm spacer hubcentric if needed with a hole allowing you to bolt through the disc spacer into the hub.

One thing to note with that is the disc inner bore is larger than the wheel bore, It will have to be a customer spacer.
The sizes are in my 5 stud thread if you need them.

[jasso]

cheers mate, i dont know what that disc was off as it was from my brothers mot garage it was defo 5x120 but the the hole that goes through the disc to the hub was not lining up but it was not a bad fit space wise from the knuckle.