Newbie - Best Trackcar Base, E30 non-M3 or E36 M3?

[Alan_M]

Hi people,

Newbie on here. Love E30s, and have recently been thinking about one as a trackcar to replace my now probably bent 205 Mi16 shitbox.

Problem is I want something on the same performance scale, if not quicker. I mean, nobosy wants to take a step backwards. I know there are plenty engine conversions out there for the E30, but not for much more money I could have an E36 M3 sitting outside instead.

My question is what would be the best trackcar on an initial budget, gradually improving the car over the years. E30 or E36 M3?

- Going for the E30, its cheap initially with plenty of engines swops to choose from. I know the E30 M3 is a legend in the handling department, probably with that edge that a 205 has maybe. But can an E30 non M3 shell be made to handle like this?

- Against, rust is not my strongpoint. Very able at the mechanics and electrics but not the orange, flaky stuff.

- As for the E36, fast straight out of the box, good bang for buck.

- Against, the E36 is a little numb compared to the E30 (which I understand can be neuteured), parts are expensive, engine reliability (rebuilds costly).

If I could find a non rusty E30 shell, and make it it as quick as my 205 and handling akin to an E30 M3, it would be job done. But by the time the bills are paid, I get the feeling I may of been better off buying an E36 M3 in the first place.

And I have always said to myself I would own an M car one day!

[Blitz]

There are many E30's that handle better then a standard M3 on here. A set of high end suspension coponents on an E30 will do it.

http://www.e30motorsport.co.uk/e30motor ... nship.html

[Nobody_You_Know]

I'd start with an E36 M3.

Three big mods that you'll need to do to an e30 are an E36 steering rack, a better engine (usually from an E36) and an adjustable rear axle (which an E36 already has).

If you've got the money to get an E36 M3 then get one, a guy from PH got a really nice one for £2k recently.

If on the other hand you want to start with something very very cheap (£300-400) and then have a long project then go for the E30.

[e21Jason]

E36 m3 better base, more power (just as reliabile as an e30 and the s50 engine parts are cheaper than a s14), better brakes, better suspesnion out of the box, mod an non m3 e30 and an e36m3 to the same budget e36 wins.

I also think a compact would be a good base, closer in spirt to the e30 with better wieght distribution.

Jason

[Fushion_Julz]

It depends on your budget for buying the car and any subsequent improvements...

An E30 325 will be cheaper to buy, probably, than an E36 M3...insurance will also be cheaper if you are going to use it on the road...

However, the E30 weighs around 1250kg and has 170bhp whereas the E36 M3 weighs around 1500kg and has 280bhp..power to weight is much better on the E36...brakes will be better and standard suspension better...aerodynamics also better...

But the cost of upgrades to the E36 M3 will be higher than for the E30 325...

I would have thought that to get a £1000 E30 325 to lap a circuit around the same time as a standard E36 M3 would cost around the same in total...
If you wanted to make the E30 faster still, then you would probably need to go for an engine transplant...probably for an S50...

[Alan_M]

Thanks....

The couple of things that scare the bejesus out of me for the M3 are the insurance costs and the cost of a rebuild if that engine goes pop. I mean, this will be a toy for me doing a lot of trackwork. I'm fairly handy with a spanner and have done engine rebuilds myself, but I've heard the M3 engine is a specialist job rather than DIY.

Adjustable rear suspension? Is that ripped off an E36 then?

[Dave_M3]

Adjustable rear suspension is only a 100 quids worth of stuff from BMW and Danthe

It gives you adjustable camber and toe at the rear.


An E36 M3 is a much better base but an E30 is more fun and if you have the time to build a good E30, its more fun too if you enjoy some spannering.

[Morat]

Get an E30, strip and cage it, then put decent suspension on it.
You're looking at... £3k? A bit more for coilovers mebbe.
Then a willwood brake kit and turbo the bastard for another £3.5-4k (drive in/out) at Ant's and you're looking at a monster! You could be pushing 350bhp in a lighter shell. Traction may be an issue, but hey too much is never enough - right?

[Fushion_Julz]

Thanks....

The couple of things that scare the bejesus out of me for the M3 are the insurance costs and the cost of a rebuild if that engine goes pop. I mean, this will be a toy for me doing a lot of trackwork. I'm fairly handy with a spanner and have done engine rebuilds myself, but I've heard the M3 engine is a specialist job rather than DIY.

Adjustable rear suspension? Is that ripped off an E36 then?

Insurance is *very* expensive unless you can insure it on a limited miles classic policy...

There is nothing special about the construction of the engine that would mean you cannot repair and rebuild yourself...
However, parts for M engines are expensive...

@ Morat: I think you're being optomistic saying you can get a 325 with cage, suspension and brakes for £3k...
But a trackday car doesn't *need* a cage...in fact, if you are going to use it as a road car I'd say don't install a cage...you don't want to smack your head on the bars which means wearing a helmet at all times...
Also a turbo M20 with 350bhp isn't going to be as fun to drive as a normally aspirated S50 with similar power...It also isn't gong to be as reliable...
I also suspect that spending £3.5-4K on a fit S50 to improve it's performance will be pretty satisfying, assuming you have that sort of cash to start with...

[Alan_M]

Get an E30, strip and cage it, then put decent suspension on it.
You're looking at... £3k? A bit more for coilovers mebbe.
Then a willwood brake kit and turbo the bastard for another £3.5-4k (drive in/out) at Ant's and you're looking at a monster! You could be pushing 350bhp in a lighter shell. Traction may be an issue, but hey too much is never enough - right?

That, sounds exactly what I want.

My current track slag, a 205Mi16, is quick but suspect bent shell. A few of the bits could be swopped over, bucket seat/harness/battery box and it has Wilwood 4 pots. Not sure if they are a straight swop though.

Is there such a thing as a rust free E30 then?

[nickso]

Is there such a thing as a rust free E30 then?

realistically no, not in the uk anyway. there are varying degrees of rot of course.

[bennydotc]

Have a read of this thread mate, if you've got half and hour to waste. We were looking to build a track car and had similar plans to you. We ended up with an E36 325.

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/to ... 0Day%20Car

E36 325s are cheaper than the equivalent E30s and stripped bare and with lightweight panels it only weighs 1,145kgs dry. Parts are easy to come by and are cheap. Learn to drive the car and don't worry about power to start with. Spend your money on stopping and turning and you'll be surprised just how quick you'll be on a fast circuit like Oulton.

We run KW race suspension, AP race brakes and run on slicks. I'm no stig but not much passes us.

[Saga]

Alan - it depends what you want out of a trackcar. If you want something fun to drive with the potential for a bit more power, I'd go for a non-M E30.

If you want something to drop an LS7 into, I'd go for the E36.

Remember the E36 is a much heavier car with very different dynamics (far closer to the E46 IME, having ragged an E36 M3 around for a few hours and owned an E46 330).

You should be able to find an E30 without any structural rust. The things which seem to go first are wings and bootlids (especially touring tailgates, ask me how I know), which obviously aren't critical. If you're doing motor swaps and buying shit-hot suspension for it, you just want a sound chassis and sod the interior, bodywork or engine.

Edit: The post above makes an E36 sound good (which I'm sure it is!), but again the E30 will be close to that before you even take the spare tyre out. Strip the E30 and you can again get down to a lighter weight - though quite probably with lots of power and lots of grip, the E36 would prove to be the quicker chassis. And if you don't like big insurance bills etc., I assume you won't be spending the sort of money that blokey from Evo spent on his Turdburglarring track car a couple of years ago...

[Morat]

Thanks....

The couple of things that scare the bejesus out of me for the M3 are the insurance costs and the cost of a rebuild if that engine goes pop. I mean, this will be a toy for me doing a lot of trackwork. I'm fairly handy with a spanner and have done engine rebuilds myself, but I've heard the M3 engine is a specialist job rather than DIY.

Adjustable rear suspension? Is that ripped off an E36 then?

Insurance is *very* expensive unless you can insure it on a limited miles classic policy...

There is nothing special about the construction of the engine that would mean you cannot repair and rebuild yourself...
However, parts for M engines are expensive...

@ Morat: I think you're being optomistic saying you can get a 325 with cage, suspension and brakes for £3k...
But a trackday car doesn't *need* a cage...in fact, if you are going to use it as a road car I'd say don't install a cage...you don't want to smack your head on the bars which means wearing a helmet at all times...
Also a turbo M20 with 350bhp isn't going to be as fun to drive as a normally aspirated S50 with similar power...It also isn't gong to be as reliable...
I also suspect that spending £3.5-4K on a fit S50 to improve it's performance will be pretty satisfying, assuming you have that sort of cash to start with...

Woops I seem to have left the brakes out of my calculation there... The 3k was for a stripped, caged and suspended E30. I'm probably still being a bit optimistic - but I reckon it depends on the level of DIY.

As for N/A vs Turbo - I reckon that is an argument that will never be solved. Turbos _feel_ faster than they are with the midrange torque and N/A howl once they're on cam. I like both! However, I've only heard good things about Ant's turbo conversions and the M20 is a pretty bullet proof old lump as long as the ancillaries (cooling especially) are fit.

[march109]

Thanks....

The couple of things that scare the bejesus out of me for the M3 are the insurance costs and the cost of a rebuild if that engine goes pop. I mean, this will be a toy for me doing a lot of trackwork. I'm fairly handy with a spanner and have done engine rebuilds myself, but I've heard the M3 engine is a specialist job rather than DIY.

Adjustable rear suspension? Is that ripped off an E36 then?

Insurance is *very* expensive unless you can insure it on a limited miles classic policy...

There is nothing special about the construction of the engine that would mean you cannot repair and rebuild yourself...
However, parts for M engines are expensive...

@ Morat: I think you're being optomistic saying you can get a 325 with cage, suspension and brakes for £3k...
But a trackday car doesn't *need* a cage...in fact, if you are going to use it as a road car I'd say don't install a cage...you don't want to smack your head on the bars which means wearing a helmet at all times...
Also a turbo M20 with 350bhp isn't going to be as fun to drive as a normally aspirated S50 with similar power...It also isn't gong to be as reliable...
I also suspect that spending £3.5-4K on a fit S50 to improve it's performance will be pretty satisfying, assuming you have that sort of cash to start with...

Woops I seem to have left the brakes out of my calculation there... The 3k was for a stripped, caged and suspended E30. I'm probably still being a bit optimistic - but I reckon it depends on the level of DIY.

As for N/A vs Turbo - I reckon that is an argument that will never be solved. Turbos _feel_ faster than they are with the midrange torque and N/A howl once they're on cam. I like both! However, I've only heard good things about Ant's turbo conversions and the M20 is a pretty bullet proof old lump as long as the ancillaries (cooling especially) are fit.

I don't think £3k is optomistic at all, it can be done. Though as I found out its cheaper to buy something that already started down the road of track prep than start from scratch.

Most decent E30s will require minimal spannering to get on track and have some fun, you can upgrade the rest as time and experience allow.

[Alan_M]

Alan - it depends what you want out of a trackcar. If you want something fun to drive with the potential for a bit more power, I'd go for a non-M E30.

If you want something to drop an LS7 into, I'd go for the E36.

Remember the E36 is a much heavier car with very different dynamics (far closer to the E46 IME, having ragged an E36 M3 around for a few hours and owned an E46 330).

You should be able to find an E30 without any structural rust. The things which seem to go first are wings and bootlids (especially touring tailgates, ask me how I know), which obviously aren't critical. If you're doing motor swaps and buying shit-hot suspension for it, you just want a sound chassis and sod the interior, bodywork or engine.

Edit: The post above makes an E36 sound good (which I'm sure it is!), but again the E30 will be close to that before you even take the spare tyre out. Strip the E30 and you can again get down to a lighter weight - though quite probably with lots of power and lots of grip, the E36 would prove to be the quicker chassis. And if you don't like big insurance bills etc., I assume you won't be spending the sort of money that blokey from Evo spent on his Turdburglarring track car a couple of years ago...

As I've mentioned before, my 205 is a 95% trackcar. Far too modified to drive on the road regularly. But I suspect the shell to be bent, hence my interest in an E30 nonM3 or E36 M3.

My 205 currently costs me less than £200 a year insurance, and would like to maintain that premium level. A previous quote for an E36 M3 Evo came in at £800 on limited mileage. Sod that......

I suppose my concern with the E30, along with the rust is that I am concerned it will be a step backwards from my 205 regarding performance. I know handling will be different from FWD to RWD but I'm my hooning in my 1 series will help my driving style.

My 205 will do a quarter mile middish to high 14s. I know I might be sounding a bit chavvy, but what sort of engine conversion would I need for better performance from an E30? I mean, nobody wants to get out of a BMW and into a Daewoo Matiz do they? What about this 2.8 conversion I keep reading about from an E36? My mate had one of those in Sport trim with a proper diff and went well. In a stripped E30 I suspect it would be quick. What about this stoker kit for it....whats that all about?

Plans would be to make it a proper trackcar. My 205 is caged, bucket seats/harnesses/totally striped/de-sunroofed/decent suspension/plastic windows/4 pots/185ish bhp Mi16/LSD. I would make it to a similar spec.

[Morat]

Why don't you get the chassis sorted and then decide? There are MANY options, and they all have their pro's and cons but I'm sure you'll find an option that you'll like.


The M52b28 conversion you talk about is well documented and with an M50 exhaust manifold it is supposed to give about 220bhp with a small increase in weight (I guess those all those valves have to weigh something!).

Of all the choices M50B25/M52B28 (small six from an E34/E36) and M30B35 (big six from a five/seven series) are the easiest and will give you in the region of 200-220bhp with a fit engine and light modification.

More than that and you're looking at either an S (motorsport, ie M3) engine (S50B30 or even S50B32 from the E36 M3 Evo) which will cost a lot more but is probably your most realistic bet for ultimate N/A power (290 and 320bhp respectively). The generally quoted figure for converting to an S50 is £6k with plenty of DIY.

If you like turbos, then all the above can be turbo'd but the easiest is probably the good old M20B25 with its FI friendly 8.8:1 compression ratio allowing about 270 bhp on stock internals at about 7PSI boost.
Ant from A-Tech quotes about £3.5k for a drive in/out M20B25 turbo running on MegaSquirt. Above that level of boost you need to lower the CR with the usual tricks.

Another boost option is the M30B35 which is capable of truly stupid power (rumours of 600bhp FI on stock internals) but it might be too heavy at the front for your lightweight track car - although fitting it to a touring should help even up the balance.

Eventually you're going to be limited by traction rather than power, and if you solve the grip issue then you'll need a reinforced diff/diff mounts.

If none of those float your boat, then keep looking. The E30 engine bay will fit anything from the BMW range from 4cylinder through I6 and V8 to V12 motors. The tricky bit is usually the electronics from the more modern engines which is why the 90s era motors are most popular at the moment. But there are V10 and V12 E30s out there ;)

[Saga]

Alan

My 205 will do a quarter mile middish to high 14s. I know I might be sounding a bit chavvy, but what sort of engine conversion would I need for better performance from an E30? I mean, nobody wants to get out of a BMW and into a Daewoo Matiz do they? What about this 2.8 conversion I keep reading about from an E36? My mate had one of those in Sport trim with a proper diff and went well. In a stripped E30 I suspect it would be quick. What about this stoker kit for it....whats that all about?

Plans would be to make it a proper trackcar. My 205 is caged, bucket seats/harnesses/totally striped/de-sunroofed/decent suspension/plastic windows/4 pots/185ish bhp Mi16/LSD. I would make it to a similar spec.

Conversions using the M50 and M52 engines from the E36/early E46 are not uncommon and are about as straightforward as these sort of things get - meaning "not really", but not bad in the grand scheme of things. You can buy plug-and-play loom conversion kits for M52 conversions AFAIK and they are common enough that there's actually a wiki online with a list of the parts you need. The M52 B28 would be the 192 hp (before any mods) conversion you're referring to. I believe that the OBD2 engines are generally not used because the electronics make that very difficult/impossible.

If you are very brave, as I alluded, you can drop a Chevy small block in a 3 series - the later sixes especially need a lot of space front to back, so a small block in an e36 or e46 (there's even one on the net in a '90s 318ti compact) gives you enough space for a swimming pool between engine and radiator. So really you can have as much power as you want in a '3'.

Not sure you're going to set faster lap times in any BMW than in a 205 with that spec without a lot more power, but then I have no empirical evidence to back that up...

[Morat]

Best person to ask would be JonBMW - he has a 205 track car as well...

[DanThe]

Compacts make great track cars! But to answer your question an E36 will always end up as a better handling car. Didnt stop the lazer blue sh1tter on wednesday though

[Simon13]

a turbo M20 track car will sh!t itself in no time, even factory turbo cars don't seem to be that great

[Jhonno]

E36 M3 wins hands down.. Neutered from the factory, strip it, throw some decent suspension on, and uprate the front brakes and it'd take 1 hell of an e30 to catch it.. In fact properly peddled, you are talking serious weapon. Dont know why you are so concerned about engine rebuild costs, the M3 lump, esp the 3.0 is very strong.. Throw some arp rod bolts in there for track work though. If it goes pop throw another in..

[Simon13]

E36 handling even in road form is much more sure footed, you just don't know where you are with them sometimes

The speed i could get my 316i round some bends was hilarious, before you laugh if you don't brake........i'd of sh!t myself even more in my E30's!

E30 is a more "fun" smiles per mile kind of car

[Jon_Bmw]

As I have eluded to before on here, and bored people senseless I suspect, a 205 with 180bhp is an extremely capable car. The fact that front wheel drive is so forgiving means that your average bloke who has been on track a few times can be up to 95%+ commited within 20 minutes. Alan, I am not sure if you find this, but I feel like I can just chuck the 205 in and it will get me out the other side. It doesn't matter how ham fisted you are.

You try and do that with an e30 and it will bite you in the arse. This is fine if you are a racing driving hero, but for most mere mortals you'll struggle to get any e30 round as quick as your 205 I suspect. This is not to say, it won't be more fun in the e30, in fact I am sure it is more fun in an e30, but will you find it frustrating...only you can answer that one. The very fact that your 205 is 800kilos and you will REALLY struggly to get an e30 down to 1050. That extra weight is all going cost you in all areas, but if you can get 230bhp+ I think that would make up for it. You will notice the weight, but that is life.

This is what I would do:

Keep your 205 and enter this:

http://www.clubmsv.com/club-msv-racing.aspx

A step up from trackdays, might keep you interested in the 205, as you'll undoubtably lose money on selling it and starting again. Our 205 is a similar spec, with slightly less power and no cage at present, and I am considering doing my ards test and entering the above with my brother.

I agree, turbo charging a NA engine is not suited for the pounding a car takes on track IMO.

Reading back, I have given RWD a bit of a bashing, it is not meant like that. Just my experience from someone who is not a god given, naturally talented race driver perhaps.

[Brian28]

Jon, that could be a really good series, but the marketing pitch winds me up a bit, ie filling the gap between track days and racing, somewhere for novice racers to take the plunge. Its either a track day or a race, there isn't anything in between. And if they put on a good support package for novices to get into racing fantastic, but what happens in the second season when they aren't novices any more? It only works as an idea if it is a feeder for other series, so in the second year "new" novices get the support package and the experienced drivers have moved on elsewhere. But there aren't the number of new drivers every year moving from track days to support this, so I'm a bit lost as to what the longer term strategy is with this.

Whoops, but of a thread drift there, to bring it back - Alan drive an E30 and an E36 M3 and go with whichever feels best for you. You can change engine suspension and everything else if you feel that it is the right car to start off with. If you hate the car from the start then its unlikely that you will ever make it into the right car for you. As an idea for what lap times cars are capable of, look up race results on TSL Timing for races that run mixed grids, will at least give you an idea. Also depends a lot on what your idea of fun is in a track car, best corner speed, highest top speed on a straight, or quickest overall round the lap? All cars give something different.

Cheers
Brian

[Jimbo2006]

If you are happy enough with spannering then my vote is for the E30. Just take your time looking for a very clean shell to start. Winter is looming to give you a chance to do mods necessary for next year. I added up every penny of my E30 track build and realised (nowhere) near the end that I could have had an E36 M3 for the money it cost me and it wasn't by any means an extravagant build...

Having not had that much experience on track, last month at Cadwell I was out with a standard E36 M3 for a fair few laps. He gradually pulled away over the session but I reckon my grin was bigger afterwards.

The E36 is the sensible choice and quickest choice, probably not the most fun so it depends what you want from a track car.
But drive both then stand back and look at how cool E30s are.

[Jon_Bmw]

Brian, yes there are a lot of issues for the series to overcome. Simple things like some of the eligible cars are over the power to weight ratio in standard trim! I guess it is fine if they get them to run balast, but if you have an e36 m3 evo, you are going to have to load the thing up to 1605kilos!

I agree with what you have said, it is marketing it quite well to novices, that know no better. For example, the series you are entering your iS is suitable for a lot of cars and perhaps cheaper??? The thing is, that it might be appealing knowing that everyone else around you has only got their ARDS test in the last year, thus you are not racing against bastards like you who have had it for years! Year 2 is an obvious problem though.

[Brian28]

See your point Jon, but in terms of trusting other drivers if I'm pelting up towards the first corner of my first race I'd probably prefer not to be surrounded by 30 budding Jason Platos all just about to arrive at their first ever racing corner Having said that, you could have your race licence for years but still not have a clue what you are doing

[Dave_M3]

3K is no way optimistic for a track car...

My "cheaper" track car should be build for about 5-6K euro and that includes the shell, stripping, caged, coil-overs but it also includes an M-power engine.
Granted the whole car will be DIY and parts won't be costing a fortune for me.
My other long term project will probably cost a years salary when the time comes but thats me just being a deluded 4 pot owner and perfectonist:mad:

E36s are probably better if you have the money to buy an e36 M3 and throw some coil-overs and things at it but a good solid E30 shell can be got for half nothing and just a 325i engine and everything essential stripped or cut out of the car will make for a very entertaining car at trackdays.

A M52b28 could be dropped in over a few weekends at your leisure and with the possibilty of 240bhp with a few mods I couldn't really see anybody wanting any more for a track/occasional road car that is just out to have some fun.